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Libertarianism and autism

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Mona Pereth
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31 Dec 2022, 7:32 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
I understand that in many countries with relatively functioning social services a lot of us may end up depending on the government.
But that's because that is what is provided by the environment. I honestly think that if there wasn't any government, ASD people could still live independently.

Some ASD people could live independently. Others would starve.

Dengashinobi wrote:
There could still be employment for us.

For some of us. Certainly not all of us.

Dengashinobi wrote:
In the country where I live there are no effective social services, yet here I am standing strong and independent.

Good for you! But autistic people are far from all alike.

What country do you live in?

Dengashinobi wrote:
It's still a challenging life but It's not like it's impossible to live. And the economy is not that strong either but still I have a higher than average wage because I'm good with arts.

Not all autistic people are good with arts, or good with math, or whatever. Many are not.

Dengashinobi wrote:
I come from a poor working class family with both parents having disabilities. Yet I can still function and even hope for a better future.

That's great for you. But please don't generalize from yourself to all other autistic people or even all "high-functioning" autistic people.

Dengashinobi wrote:
In the case of low functioning autism though, financial help is necessary. But even in this occasion private charities and religious organisations fill the gap, rather effectively.

In some places, perhaps. Certainly not everywhere.

Do you live in a rural area?

Dengashinobi wrote:
This is what happens in my country at least.

What country is this?

Dengashinobi wrote:
Personally I prefer it this way rather than having the government extorting people for their money

Here in the U.S.A., and here in New York City in particular, billionaires should be taxed more, not less. Taxing billionaires is IMO a significant positive good in itself, regardless of what the money ends up getting spent on, even regardless of whether the money ends up getting spent on anything at all. Specifically, a progressive tax on property value would be desirable. We have way too much wealth inequality, and too many apartments that are being held off the market by real estate speculators.

Dengashinobi wrote:
so it can give it to me and have me worship it like a saviour.

At least here in the U.S.A., churches are far more likely to expect "worship" than the government, which certainly does not expect to be "worshipped."


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 31 Dec 2022, 8:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Mona Pereth
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31 Dec 2022, 7:48 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
There is nothing the state can do that the private can't do better and at a lower cost.

That is simply not true.

Do you think fire-fighting, for example, should be done solely by the private sector?

Lots of small towns have volunteer fire departments, but that would never work well in a big city like NYC. We need our professional fire department. Also, even in rural areas, the occasional wildfire needs to be handled by the government.

Also, public transportation is much better handled by the government.

Years ago here in NYC, we had some private bus lines, in addition to the government-run ones. The government-run ones generally had better on-time performance. Eventually the private bus lines were bought out by the government.

By the way, public transportation benefits the general public, not just the people who actually use it. Here in NYC at least, even the people who don't use public transportation benefit from the fact that the people who do use it are able to get to work without further clogging up the highways and streets with cars.


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Dengashinobi
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31 Dec 2022, 8:59 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:

What country do you live in?



I prefer not to tell which country I'm from for my own reasons, sorry.



Dengashinobi
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31 Dec 2022, 9:07 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
There is nothing the state can do that the private can't do better and at a lower cost.

That is simply not true.

Do you think fire-fighting, for example, should be done solely by the private sector?

Lots of small towns have volunteer fire departments, but that would never work well in a big city like NYC. We need our professional fire department. Also, even in rural areas, the occasional wildfire needs to be handled by the government.

Also, public transportation is much better handled by the government.

Years ago here in NYC, we had some private bus lines, in addition to the government-run ones. The government-run ones generally had better on-time performance. Eventually the private bus lines were bought out by the government.

By the way, public transportation benefits the general public, not just the people who actually use it. Here in NYC at least, even the people who don't use public transportation benefit from the fact that the people who do use it are able to get to work without further clogging up the highways and streets with cars.


There is an infinite amount of needs to be accommodated while the resources are scarce. The free market is the best way to allocate resources according to the needs people have. A centralised economy even if partial, like the one that is being implemented right now basically everywhere is unable to deside which resources are allocated to which needs proportionally. Government intervention is only an obstacle to the correct allocation. Everybody is better off long term without such interventions, even the disabled. The free market has provided for billions of people that got out of poverty the last two centuries.



Mona Pereth
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31 Dec 2022, 9:27 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:

What country do you live in?



I prefer not to tell which country I'm from for my own reasons, sorry.

Can you at least tell us what general kind of an area you live in? Urban vs. suburban vs. rural? Things do work differently in different kinds of places.


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Dengashinobi
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31 Dec 2022, 9:38 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:

What country do you live in?



I prefer not to tell which country I'm from for my own reasons, sorry.

Can you at least tell us what general kind of an area you live in? Urban vs. suburban vs. rural? Things do work differently in different kinds of places.


I grew up in a large city, then I moved back to my birthplace, a town of about 80 thousand people, then moved again to a large city. I prefer the large cities actually.



Mona Pereth
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01 Jan 2023, 1:42 am

Dengashinobi wrote:
There is an infinite amount of needs to be accommodated while the resources are scarce. The free market is the best way to allocate resources according to the needs people have.

No, it is not. A free market favors the frivolous desires of the wealthy over the desperate needs of the poor, for one obvious example. Also, many technological advances would never have been developed without government investment in scientific research, because otherwise these technological advances just would have taken way too long to become profitable.

There are also many kinds of market failure that are recognized, as such, by mainstream economists. (See Wikipedia article on market failure.)

Dengashinobi wrote:
A centralised economy even if partial, like the one that is being implemented right now basically everywhere is unable to deside which resources are allocated to which needs proportionally.

It can never be perfect, yes.

However, all of the world's most successful economies have been mixed economies, neither purely free market nor purely government-controlled.

We know that pure Communist-style centralized command economy doesn't work well. But pure free market doesn't work well either. Pure free market would lead inevitably to more and more wealth getting concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, and would also be a hindrance to technological development.

We need mixed economies. The only question is, what is the right mixture? That's a complex question, with no simple single-soundbite answer.

Dengashinobi wrote:
Government intervention is only an obstacle to the correct allocation. Everybody is better off long term without such interventions, even the disabled. The free market has provided for billions of people that got out of poverty the last two centuries.

No, pure free markets are not what got billions of people out of poverty these last two centuries.


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Mona Pereth
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01 Jan 2023, 1:52 am

Dengashinobi wrote:
I grew up in a large city, then I moved back to my birthplace, a town of about 80 thousand people, then moved again to a large city. I prefer the large cities actually.

Which of the following kinds of large city do you live in? (1) a densely populated city, like New York City, or (2) a big sprawly one-gigantic-suburb kind of city, like Los Angeles?

Anyhow, there are a few specific ways in which I think most cities should become more libertarian than they are now. One of these is a loosening of zoning laws. One of the main causes of the housing crisis is overly strict zoning laws.

However, a total absence of zoning laws would be a disaster, resulting in things like severe water shortages in many places.


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carlos55
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01 Jan 2023, 5:17 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
You would think so as a libertarian myself

You're a libertarian???

You seem more like a moderate on economic issues.


I support small government that doesn't involve itself abroad and leaves the people alone.

Maybe that's a form of Libertarianism maybe not. Unfortunately what some libertarians propose sounds more like wild west anarchy


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Dengashinobi
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01 Jan 2023, 6:49 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
There is an infinite amount of needs to be accommodated while the resources are scarce. The free market is the best way to allocate resources according to the needs people have.

No, it is not. A free market favors the frivolous desires of the wealthy over the desperate needs of the poor, for one obvious example. Also, many technological advances would never have been developed without government investment in scientific research, because otherwise these technological advances just would have taken way too long to become profitable.

There are also many kinds of market failure that are recognized, as such, by mainstream economists. (See Wikipedia article on market failure.)

Dengashinobi wrote:
A centralised economy even if partial, like the one that is being implemented right now basically everywhere is unable to deside which resources are allocated to which needs proportionally.

It can never be perfect, yes.

However, all of the world's most successful economies have been mixed economies, neither purely free market nor purely government-controlled.

We know that pure Communist-style centralized command economy doesn't work well. But pure free market doesn't work well either. Pure free market would lead inevitably to more and more wealth getting concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, and would also be a hindrance to technological development.

We need mixed economies. The only question is, what is the right mixture? That's a complex question, with no simple single-soundbite answer.

Dengashinobi wrote:
Government intervention is only an obstacle to the correct allocation. Everybody is better off long term without such interventions, even the disabled. The free market has provided for billions of people that got out of poverty the last two centuries.

No, pure free markets are not what got billions of people out of poverty these last two centuries.


At this point I do not see how we could possibly convince each other. At least we agree that Communism is no good, which for me is a good enough common ground.



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01 Jan 2023, 6:59 am

carlos55 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
You would think so as a libertarian myself

You're a libertarian???

You seem more like a moderate on economic issues.


I support small government that doesn't involve itself abroad and leaves the people alone.

Maybe that's a form of Libertarianism maybe not. Unfortunately what some libertarians propose sounds more like wild west anarchy


I also support a small government. I'm not an anarcho-capitalist. But judging by what you said in this thread sounds like you support a little more state intervention in the economy.



carlos55
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01 Jan 2023, 10:43 am

Dengashinobi wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
You would think so as a libertarian myself

You're a libertarian???

You seem more like a moderate on economic issues.


I support small government that doesn't involve itself abroad and leaves the people alone.

Maybe that's a form of Libertarianism maybe not. Unfortunately what some libertarians propose sounds more like wild west anarchy


I also support a small government. I'm not an anarcho-capitalist. But judging by what you said in this thread sounds like you support a little more state intervention in the economy.


Just the basics, health, education, police, army & welfare protections

I don't believe the US or UK should involve itself with foreign wars or the internal affairs of other countries.

I also don't support big government.

I probably had the same views as Ron Paul & would have voted for him (senior i believe)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul


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Texasmoneyman300
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01 Jan 2023, 1:54 pm

carlos55 wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
You would think so as a libertarian myself

You're a libertarian???

You seem more like a moderate on economic issues.


I support small government that doesn't involve itself abroad and leaves the people alone.

Maybe that's a form of Libertarianism maybe not. Unfortunately what some libertarians propose sounds more like wild west anarchy


I also support a small government. I'm not an anarcho-capitalist. But judging by what you said in this thread sounds like you support a little more state intervention in the economy.


Just the basics, health, education, police, army & welfare protections

I don't believe the US or UK should involve itself with foreign wars or the internal affairs of other countries.

I also don't support big government.

I probably had the same views as Ron Paul & would have voted for him (senior i believe)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul

Ya I like Ron Paul myself too.



Mona Pereth
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01 Jan 2023, 2:08 pm

carlos55 wrote:
I support small government that doesn't involve itself abroad and leaves the people alone.

[...]

Just the basics, health, education, police, army & welfare protections

I don't believe the US or UK should involve itself with foreign wars or the internal affairs of other countries.

I also don't support big government.

What are some examples of what you mean by "big government"?

carlos55 wrote:
I probably had the same views as Ron Paul

No, you don't.

carlos55 wrote:
& would have voted for him (senior i believe)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul

Re-read that Wikipedia article, and see also political positions of Ron Paul.

He opposes all government involvement in health care.

He opposes all government welfare programs including Social Security.

He also opposes any and all government funding of scientific research.

According to this article, he even opposes all government-funded education.

Basically he thinks a government should consist of nothing at all at all except police, a court system, and a small military.

His views, like the views of most libertarians in general, are much more radical than you apparently think they are.


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carlos55
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01 Jan 2023, 4:49 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
I support small government that doesn't involve itself abroad and leaves the people alone.

[...]

Just the basics, health, education, police, army & welfare protections

I don't believe the US or UK should involve itself with foreign wars or the internal affairs of other countries.

I also don't support big government.

What are some examples of what you mean by "big government"?

carlos55 wrote:
I probably had the same views as Ron Paul

No, you don't.

carlos55 wrote:
& would have voted for him (senior i believe)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul

Re-read that Wikipedia article, and see also political positions of Ron Paul.

He opposes all government involvement in health care.

He opposes all government welfare programs including Social Security.

He also opposes any and all government funding of scientific research.

According to this article, he even opposes all government-funded education.

Basically he thinks a government should consist of nothing at all at all except police, a court system, and a small military.

His views, like the views of most libertarians in general, are much more radical than you apparently think they are.


I'm not a US citizen so never scrutinised or evaluated your political candidates in the same way you and other US citizens have.

We also have limited information on them here in the UK, of course there's the internet, but I'm not ever going to vote in any US election so why bother

I first saw Ron Paul about early 2000`s he was very much against the Iraq war & US meddling in foreign countries, something i supported and wanted for the UK as well.

Many of his views on the too big to fail bank bail outs of 2008, i supported too.

I wouldn't probably agree with many of his other policies but then again i generally dislike both Trump and Biden.

Ron Paul is not a standard Republican or Democrat so as the US political system is a form of financial lobbyist oligarchy he`s probably been the most interesting politician in recent years from an outsider perspective.


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Dengashinobi
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01 Jan 2023, 6:22 pm

carlos55 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
I first saw Ron Paul about early 2000`s he was very much against the Iraq war & US meddling in foreign countries, something i supported and wanted for the UK as well.

Many of his views on the too big to fail bank bail outs of 2008, i supported too.

Ron Paul is not a standard Republican or Democrat so as the US political system is a form of financial lobbyist oligarchy he`s probably been the most interesting politician in recent years from an outsider perspective.


That's what being libertarian is. But it includes the belief that the state should stay away from all forms of interventions with society including education, healthcare, social securities etc. This stems from the belief that the state and it's bureaucracy are dangerous. Like George Washington said, "The state is like fire, it's a useful servant and a dangerous master".