07 Apr 2023, 5:35 am
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ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,644
Location: Long Island, New York
07 Apr 2023, 10:12 am
07 Apr 2023, 11:06 pm
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Hans Asperger did not coin the term "Aspergers Syndrome" it was named after him. He called it "autistic psychopathy".
New study investigates whether Hans Asperger actively assisted the Nazi euthanasia program
A book by historian Edith Sheffer entitled “Asperger’s Children: The origins of autism in Nazi Vienna” came to similar conclusions
New study investigates whether Hans Asperger actively assisted the Nazi euthanasia program
Quote:
Pediatrician Hans Asperger, after whom the condition of Asperger Syndrome was named, actively cooperated with the Nazi regime, according to a study published in the open access journal Molecular Autism.
Herwig Czech, a historian of medicine at the Medical University of Vienna and author of the study, analyzed Asperger's Nazi-era publications along with previously unexplored documents from Austrian archives, including the doctor’s personnel files and case records from his patients. He concludes that the narrative of Asperger as an active opponent of the Nazi regime and its policies cannot be upheld in the light of the examined evidence; his role was much more problematic than that.
The study points to instances where Asperger referred profoundly disabled children to the Am Spiegelgrund clinic, which participated in the Third Reich's child euthanasia program. The program served the Nazi goal of eugenically engineering a genetically ‘pure’ society through ‘racial hygiene’ and the elimination of lives deemed a ‘burden’ and ‘not worthy of life’.
In the Am Spiegelgrund clinic, hundreds of children, many of them with severe mental disabilities, were killed, mostly through lethal drugs. Their deaths were mostly recorded as due to pneumonia.
Herwig Czech said: “These findings about Hans Asperger are the result of many years of careful research in the archives. What emerges is that Asperger successfully sought to accommodate himself to the Nazi regime and was rewarded with career opportunities in return. This is part of a broader effort by historians to expose what doctors were doing during the Third Reich.”
Herwig Czech, a historian of medicine at the Medical University of Vienna and author of the study, analyzed Asperger's Nazi-era publications along with previously unexplored documents from Austrian archives, including the doctor’s personnel files and case records from his patients. He concludes that the narrative of Asperger as an active opponent of the Nazi regime and its policies cannot be upheld in the light of the examined evidence; his role was much more problematic than that.
The study points to instances where Asperger referred profoundly disabled children to the Am Spiegelgrund clinic, which participated in the Third Reich's child euthanasia program. The program served the Nazi goal of eugenically engineering a genetically ‘pure’ society through ‘racial hygiene’ and the elimination of lives deemed a ‘burden’ and ‘not worthy of life’.
In the Am Spiegelgrund clinic, hundreds of children, many of them with severe mental disabilities, were killed, mostly through lethal drugs. Their deaths were mostly recorded as due to pneumonia.
Herwig Czech said: “These findings about Hans Asperger are the result of many years of careful research in the archives. What emerges is that Asperger successfully sought to accommodate himself to the Nazi regime and was rewarded with career opportunities in return. This is part of a broader effort by historians to expose what doctors were doing during the Third Reich.”
A book by historian Edith Sheffer entitled “Asperger’s Children: The origins of autism in Nazi Vienna” came to similar conclusions
I have seen this before.
One of the things that concern me is the absence of reading the subtext/reading-between-the-lines.
Ppl have to consider the context of the time, being under the influence of a megalomaniacal dictator.
I IMAGINE, there would have to be times when "choosing one's battles" and "choosing the least worst choice" may have come into play.
Keep in mind, there were a number of countries of the time, including the United Kindom and Ammmmeria, that believed in eugenics, and engaged in practising it, IIRC.
At the Numerburg trials, after the war, it was pointed out that Hitler was influenced by these conventions.
I am NOT defending Asperger. Why should I?
I am simply more interested in the Truth rather than a possible politically inspired narrative.
There are many instances where being skeptical is appropriate.
I suspect this is one of those cases.
Just a simple skunk's opinion.
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,644
Location: Long Island, New York
08 Apr 2023, 5:15 pm
Pepe wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Hans Asperger did not coin the term "Aspergers Syndrome" it was named after him. He called it "autistic psychopathy".
New study investigates whether Hans Asperger actively assisted the Nazi euthanasia program
A book by historian Edith Sheffer entitled “Asperger’s Children: The origins of autism in Nazi Vienna” came to similar conclusions
New study investigates whether Hans Asperger actively assisted the Nazi euthanasia program
Quote:
Pediatrician Hans Asperger, after whom the condition of Asperger Syndrome was named, actively cooperated with the Nazi regime, according to a study published in the open access journal Molecular Autism.
Herwig Czech, a historian of medicine at the Medical University of Vienna and author of the study, analyzed Asperger's Nazi-era publications along with previously unexplored documents from Austrian archives, including the doctor’s personnel files and case records from his patients. He concludes that the narrative of Asperger as an active opponent of the Nazi regime and its policies cannot be upheld in the light of the examined evidence; his role was much more problematic than that.
The study points to instances where Asperger referred profoundly disabled children to the Am Spiegelgrund clinic, which participated in the Third Reich's child euthanasia program. The program served the Nazi goal of eugenically engineering a genetically ‘pure’ society through ‘racial hygiene’ and the elimination of lives deemed a ‘burden’ and ‘not worthy of life’.
In the Am Spiegelgrund clinic, hundreds of children, many of them with severe mental disabilities, were killed, mostly through lethal drugs. Their deaths were mostly recorded as due to pneumonia.
Herwig Czech said: “These findings about Hans Asperger are the result of many years of careful research in the archives. What emerges is that Asperger successfully sought to accommodate himself to the Nazi regime and was rewarded with career opportunities in return. This is part of a broader effort by historians to expose what doctors were doing during the Third Reich.”
Herwig Czech, a historian of medicine at the Medical University of Vienna and author of the study, analyzed Asperger's Nazi-era publications along with previously unexplored documents from Austrian archives, including the doctor’s personnel files and case records from his patients. He concludes that the narrative of Asperger as an active opponent of the Nazi regime and its policies cannot be upheld in the light of the examined evidence; his role was much more problematic than that.
The study points to instances where Asperger referred profoundly disabled children to the Am Spiegelgrund clinic, which participated in the Third Reich's child euthanasia program. The program served the Nazi goal of eugenically engineering a genetically ‘pure’ society through ‘racial hygiene’ and the elimination of lives deemed a ‘burden’ and ‘not worthy of life’.
In the Am Spiegelgrund clinic, hundreds of children, many of them with severe mental disabilities, were killed, mostly through lethal drugs. Their deaths were mostly recorded as due to pneumonia.
Herwig Czech said: “These findings about Hans Asperger are the result of many years of careful research in the archives. What emerges is that Asperger successfully sought to accommodate himself to the Nazi regime and was rewarded with career opportunities in return. This is part of a broader effort by historians to expose what doctors were doing during the Third Reich.”
A book by historian Edith Sheffer entitled “Asperger’s Children: The origins of autism in Nazi Vienna” came to similar conclusions
I have seen this before.
One of the things that concern me is the absence of reading the subtext/reading-between-the-lines.
Ppl have to consider the context of the time, being under the influence of a megalomaniacal dictator.
I IMAGINE, there would have to be times when "choosing one's battles" and "choosing the least worst choice" may have come into play.
Keep in mind, there were a number of countries of the time, including the United Kindom and Ammmmeria, that believed in eugenics, and engaged in practising it, IIRC.
At the Numerburg trials, after the war, it was pointed out that Hitler was influenced by these conventions.
I am NOT defending Asperger. Why should I?
I am simply more interested in the Truth rather than a possible politically inspired narrative.
There are many instances where being skeptical is appropriate.
I suspect this is one of those cases.
Just a simple skunk's opinion.
Moved from another thread
Loborojo wrote:
I have grown hostile or allergic to the label Asperger, because it is Hans Asperger who selected the autistic people whom society could still use or have them productive for the Nazi society. So, the ones that didn’t make it were sent to the gasovens...would you like to continue to have this physicians surname as a label for what you are? 
If “Aspergers” is a problem for you don’t use it. But do know that the word “Autism” also has problematic origins.
The Eugenicist Origins of Autism Prior to Hans Asperger
Quote:
I’ve recently seen lots of autistic people rejecting the term “Asperger’s” because it is associated with Hans Asperger, who some researchers think was knowingly complicit in Nazi eugenics (although others have more recently contested this, based on newly translated evidence). The general move has been to use “autistic” instead of “Asperger’s”, to shift away from associations with Hans Asperger.
First, Asperger himself didn’t use the term “Asperger’s syndrome”; in fact, he was the first to use “autistic” as a diagnostic label. Yes, the term “autism” had been in use since Eugene Bleuler coined it in 1908 (as I’ll come back to), and “autistic” had been passingly used as a descriptive term (e.g. by Sukharevra in 1925). But Asperger was the first to use it to refer to a specific kind of person (i.e. the autistic person) rather than as a general descriptive term attributable to anyone if they displayed autistic type traits. Moreover, he used it to refer to all autistics, not just those considered more able to function in line with social norms. In contrast to the very different classification “Asperger’s syndrome” (invented by Lorna Wing much later), Asperger was explicit in his 1944 paper that autism “occurs” at all levels of cognitive ability. In short, the use of the label “autistic” in the way it is increasingly being used, was the creation of Hans Asperger. So, using “autistic” is an endorsement of his framing, not a rejection of it.
The second thing to note is that, even non-withstanding the first point, the term “autism” itself was coined by a rabid, racist eugenicist Eugene Bleuler. For instance, here he is in 1924 promoting killing disabled people in order to stop his “race” deteriorating:
“The more severely burdened should not propogate themselves . . . If we do nothing but make mental and physical cripples capable of propa- gating themselves, and the healthy stocks have to limit the number of their children because so much has to be done for the maintenance of others, if natural selection is generally suppressed, then unless we will
get new measures our race must rapidly deteriorate.”
And, before anyone tries to defend him by suggesting that this was just the prevailing view of his time, it wasn’t. In fact, more than a decade prior to the above quote, he had been lamenting the actually prevailing views of his time for forcing him to keep his patients alive:
“Most of our worst restraining measures would be unnecessary if we were not duty bound to preserve the patients lives which. for them as well as for others, are only of negative value . . . Even if a few more killed themselves - does this reason justify the fact that we torture hundreds of patients and aggravate their disease? At the present time we psychiatrists are burdened with the tragic responsibility of obeying the cruel views of society: but it is our responsibility to do our utmost to bring about a change in these views in the future”
In fact, Bleuler, an incredibly influential psychiatrist (who also coined “schizophrenia”) was arguably part of the reason eugenics became a prevailing ideology. There were no Nazis pressuring him into this (as some argue may have been the case with Asperger); rather, he was part of the pressure.
First, Asperger himself didn’t use the term “Asperger’s syndrome”; in fact, he was the first to use “autistic” as a diagnostic label. Yes, the term “autism” had been in use since Eugene Bleuler coined it in 1908 (as I’ll come back to), and “autistic” had been passingly used as a descriptive term (e.g. by Sukharevra in 1925). But Asperger was the first to use it to refer to a specific kind of person (i.e. the autistic person) rather than as a general descriptive term attributable to anyone if they displayed autistic type traits. Moreover, he used it to refer to all autistics, not just those considered more able to function in line with social norms. In contrast to the very different classification “Asperger’s syndrome” (invented by Lorna Wing much later), Asperger was explicit in his 1944 paper that autism “occurs” at all levels of cognitive ability. In short, the use of the label “autistic” in the way it is increasingly being used, was the creation of Hans Asperger. So, using “autistic” is an endorsement of his framing, not a rejection of it.
The second thing to note is that, even non-withstanding the first point, the term “autism” itself was coined by a rabid, racist eugenicist Eugene Bleuler. For instance, here he is in 1924 promoting killing disabled people in order to stop his “race” deteriorating:
“The more severely burdened should not propogate themselves . . . If we do nothing but make mental and physical cripples capable of propa- gating themselves, and the healthy stocks have to limit the number of their children because so much has to be done for the maintenance of others, if natural selection is generally suppressed, then unless we will
get new measures our race must rapidly deteriorate.”
And, before anyone tries to defend him by suggesting that this was just the prevailing view of his time, it wasn’t. In fact, more than a decade prior to the above quote, he had been lamenting the actually prevailing views of his time for forcing him to keep his patients alive:
“Most of our worst restraining measures would be unnecessary if we were not duty bound to preserve the patients lives which. for them as well as for others, are only of negative value . . . Even if a few more killed themselves - does this reason justify the fact that we torture hundreds of patients and aggravate their disease? At the present time we psychiatrists are burdened with the tragic responsibility of obeying the cruel views of society: but it is our responsibility to do our utmost to bring about a change in these views in the future”
In fact, Bleuler, an incredibly influential psychiatrist (who also coined “schizophrenia”) was arguably part of the reason eugenics became a prevailing ideology. There were no Nazis pressuring him into this (as some argue may have been the case with Asperger); rather, he was part of the pressure.
Before the revelations about Hans Asperger’s Nazi complicity I identified both as an “Aspie” and as “Autistic” as I felt and still feel that Aspergers is a sub category of Autism. After the revelations about Hans Asperger I dropped the Aspie identification.
I do feel there is a difference between using a term coined by a problematic person and self identifying with a term named after a problematic person which is form of honoring a person. So my Autistic identity stays.
I have fully taken into a account that Hans Asperger was dealing with a situation where being politically incorrect did not mean getting canceled but meant being sent to a concentration camp and he did what most of us would do when faced with that horrific choice. That said if I am going to honor somebody by self identifying, that person has to be extraordinarily good and Hans Asperger does not measure to that high standard.
So many people want terms to pass purity tests. Autism and Autistic fails the purity test big time not only for its origins but they way those terms have been used as reasons to do horrible things to people in the decades since.
Self description and self identity are very personal things and I am very happy that unlike so many other places we generally respect that here.
Off Topic
Eugenics had widespread bi-partisan support in the United States, including from people whom you would not suspect would be eugenicist supporters.
disability history museum
disability history museum
Helen Keller wrote:
It seems to me that the simplest, wisest thing to do would be to submit cases like that of the malformed idiot baby to a jury of expert physicians. An ordinary jury decides matters of life and death on the evidence of untrained and often prejudiced observers. Their own verdict is not based on a knowledge of criminology, and they are often swayed by obscure prejudices or the eloquence of a prosecutor. Even if the accused before them is guilty, there is often no way of knowing that he would commit new crimes, that he would not become a useful and productive member of society. A mental defective, on the other hand, is almost sure to be a potential criminal. The evidence before a jury of physicians considering the case of an idiot would be exact and scientific. Their findings would be free from the prejudice and inaccuracy of untrained observation. They would act only in cases of true idiocy, where there could be no hope of mental development.
Biscuitman
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Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 45
Gender: Male
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Location: Dunking jammy dodgers
10 Apr 2023, 7:51 am
SarahBea
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: 10 Apr 2023
Age: 22
Gender: Female
Posts: 63
Location: St Albans
10 Apr 2023, 1:34 pm
I don't care what you call me, as long as you do not call me late at night. 
11 Apr 2023, 12:13 am
SarahBea wrote:
I don't care what you call me, as long as you do not call me late at night.
It’s not a joke I started here. Your answer is ill-conceived for me.
11 Apr 2023, 12:21 am
Biscuitman wrote:
Words have different meanings and connotations in different countries, they can be used differently in one country to the next, and they change over time as well
Just let people use which word they want for it.
Just let people use which word they want for it.
What’s wrong with educating ourselves a bit about it? Or do you mean like in the vein of black people call themselves n....s? We even have a battle raging now in the LGBTQ+ community because of the huge backlash against the transgenders...now they want to distance themselves from T and not use the word queer anymore. Can’t you see this polarisation of minorities by those who hate us? Rule by division. Herbie Hancock decried the rappers use of the N word that according to him brings to nought all emancipation they fought for...So, now with the latest information about the true meaning and origin of Autism I think I will not use autism either any longer. Perhaps neurodiverse is better an option? Even schizophrenia has a mean ringing to it now...I could call myself an ufl..Unfit for living.
11 Apr 2023, 12:38 am
11 Apr 2023, 1:20 am
14 Apr 2023, 9:26 pm
14 Apr 2023, 10:27 pm
14 Apr 2023, 10:36 pm
15 Apr 2023, 3:24 am
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