Female false red flag signals

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Kum-bai-ya-baloney.

I have never in my life seen someone who consistently acted inappropriately, who wasn't informed at some point, if not repeatedly, of what they were doing wrong, and what to do instead. Seems to me that the people that don't change, are the ones that argue and get defensive - whereas the ones that actually listen and accept, tend to also change, and do better.

Society does not "condemn every little misstep". People make minor mistakes all the time, and aren't horse-flogged for it. Again, the mistakes y'all are making aren't minor - y'all just play them off like they are minor.

Yeah it's crazy how the person who makes the mistake is held accountable for their actions, while people inform them on how to do better next time. The audacity.

How exactly do you expect to change or improve, if when told of your error, and how to improve, you simply get offended for being told you've committed an error, and argue that you haven't?

I don't know if you looked at the info under my user name. I'm a 60 year old woman. I've never been accused of harassing or stalking anyone. I'm not standing up for myself but for vulnerable people who I see get blamed again and again for being "creepy" because they were standing too close or didn't make eye contact or didn't respond promptly or relevantly when spoken to. These are common behaviors especially with ASD men, that are very difficult to see or intercept when one is engaging in them. And all we can say to people who commit these faux pas is "it's your fault" and "you're not listening" and "you're not trying." Can we try to acknowledge that awkwardness is not the same as being creepy? Others in this thread have said as much.

But even you're not listening. It's already been stated, many times, that the issue is NOT simply standing a little too close, or eye contact issues, or not responding promptly enough. That's just what gets blamed.

You're not listening to the fact that it's bigger problems than that, and that since they're bigger problems, it's a MUCH bigger problem that they don't see the damn problem. It's a MUCH bigger problem to keep doing it. And it's not always behaviors - a lot of times it's beliefs. Beliefs guys can't seem to help but express. Beliefs about women, and dating, and expectations. Beliefs that range from questionable to outright creepy.

Quite frankly, I don't care if you're a 7,000 year old salmon-crested cockatoo, you're enabling the same type of behavior by perpetuating the same baloney using the same terminology. Even if you're not engaging in it yourself, you're not exactly helping prevent it, nor are you doing these men any good by allowing them to persist in it, which is the opposite of facilitating change. It's catering to their feelings, and allowing them to further entrench in the same routine even more.

Regardless of whether or not they like hearing it, they're NOT listening, either. Maybe they'd do better if, I dunno, they listened? How hard can someone be trying if they keep doing the same thing, and insisting they're not even wrong? How is it NOT their fault? It's their actions, that illicit a response. Very seldom is the problem actually "everyone else".

I definitely acknowledge that awkward is not the same as creepy. The issue is that guys do CREEPY stuff, and BLAME the awkward stuff, while DENYING or JUSTIFYING the CREEPY stuff, as though they're ONLY doing the AWKWARD stuff.

And to be fair, it might not be awkwardness, or creepiness. It might be an insufferable attitude, or being rude, or being sexist, or being pushy, or any other negative traits that might make people not want to be around them.

Back to not listening, I'll say again, if the excuse is that they don't know better, then what makes them so confident they have accurately assessed what they have or haven't done, and to what degree? They don't have any social awareness, but they KNOW that they didn't do ANYthing wrong! How does that work?

You as well as them all keep falling back onto the same trodden path, over and over. Harmless quirks, harshly judged, shunned by society, deserves a chance, not their fault, didn't know better, it's in the mail, my dog ate it, it's in my other pants...

The claim that nothing is said other than "it's your fault, you're not listening" is absurd. People have been very specific and precise in explaining what exactly can present issues, and how to correct it. But when told, those people argue. And at that point, they are, in fact, not listening. Hence why it gets said. Funny that...

I daresay it's not unfair to point out that part of the problem is that they're not listening, when they are in fact not listening, and it is in fact part of the problem.

Pot . . . Kettle . . . Black.

It kinda goes back to when, where and how you present yourself both in a verbal and nonverbal way. You may (or at least think) you do everything right as far as trying talking to women but I bet your body language is sending out a completely different signal than what your intentions are. They catch it and react the way they do. I won’t argue if women (and men) over analyze it or not but I at least get why someone would.

If you have someone you can trust, ask them how you present yourself to someone both verbally and nonverbally.

Yeah... No.

For one thing, I'm offering solutions, not excuses. And the only reason I'm repeating an answer is cos they keep repeating the question or premise. Funny how asking the same question begets the same answer. Yeah, sure, if you want to be pedantic, we are both technically reiterating the same points, but that doesn't mean they're substantively identical or equivalent.

Even if I stop chiming in, everyone else will still go round and round in their same little circles repeating their same woe-is-me and everyone-else-is-at-fault excuses, just without me. Their problems will still exist, and they will just keep whining about them, as they have been for years. The machine runs just fine all it's own without me. Let's not pretend that I'm somehow the reason things go in circles.

Tell you what - I'll quiet down for a little while, and everyone here can tell me when they've got everything all figured out and fixed. I'm sure it won't take long at all to convince all these women that you're right and they're wrong. Cos "everyone else is wrong except me" sounds like a totally reasonable conclusion...

I think autistics might not realise the manner in which they speak to people. Body language, tone of voice and overall sociability plays a role.

At the low end, lack of eye contact or being overly talkative can be very off-putting to women, at the extreme end, talking to people in a patronising, aggressive manner.

Neither are received well by women or anyone for that matter.

This makes sense to me. I accept what you are saying.

There are some things we can change, and that we should change.
Others, we cannot change altogether, but we can modify, or compensate for in some way, shape or form.

Interpersonal relationships are difficult for Aspies... but there is no point in complaining about NTs. We are the ones who must adapt to them, not the other way around. I like to drink Humble Tea, it is my favorite beverage.

There are some things that I have found that can be accomplished in the social sphere, such as getting along with others in the work place. This I can do. It requires humility, and an easy-going nature, and a lot of Please and Thank you's, and never holding a grudge, and Always forgiving Everyone, without exception, no matter what they may have said or done to you in the past. This is where the Christian religion is an advantage, because isn't all of this what Jesus recommended? I think we need to guard against Over-sensitivity, it is a disadvantage. Let go of the ego, it is not your friend.

There are other things I that I have found cannot be accomplished in the social sphere, and so I keep my ambitions small, and don't try to over-extend or expect too much from others. My expectations are very minimal, but I would certainly leave a job if I were being abused on a regular basis, or underpaid, and have left such jobs before and not regretted it.

!	Cornflake wrote:
	Some posts were removed as off-topic and/or making a personal attack. Those whining complaining about the perceived tone of some posts here would do well to consider that this is just as easily misread.

There are men that are doing their best but still behave oddly. Most people interpret it as pretty harmless but odd, while some women read in too much or are for some reason hypersensitive and perceive it as red flags. Some people, regardless of sex or gender, are socially tone deaf or at least bad at reading social cues. That makes them behave "strange" or red flag the wrong people. Desclaimer to prevent any personal attacks: I have never myself been accused of being creepy or redflagged by any woman. On the contrary, it seems like I have been blessed with a gren flag hanging over my head.

I try my best to be polite in social settings. And also I was using sarcasm and hiperbole to get my point across.

IDK I have never seen quirkier or differences like that to bring red flags, its if that is combined with actual undesirable behavior. Like the guy I dated before my boyfriend was a bit quirky may have had autism or something to, was living at his moms house still and I did not care about any of that...I still liked him. But then he ghosted me, I tried contacting him for a couple months but only got dead silence so I moved on.

LIke I liked him just fine, but he ghosted me for months and then messaged me after I started dating my now boyfriend to try to convince me to give him another chance, and I was kind of like 'no I am not going to break up with my boyfriend to give a guy who ghosted me another chance and blocked him. Idk so I think some guys create a prison of their own making cause before he started being weird about me having a new boyfriend he said 'girls just don't like me boo hoo' but it was like well maybe you should stop ghosting girls you date. Cause yeah if he hadn't ghosted me I very well may have ended up being his girlfriend and never even met my now boyfriend. But he chalked it up to girls not liking him...and it's like, well you can't just ghost them for months because you get nervous or whatever and then try to guilt them if they've moved on in that amount of time.

I'm one of the fortunate autistic people who is able to understand sarcasm at least some of the time.

I choose not to use it around other autistic people, because they may take it literally, and that may lead to confrontation.

Yeah I hate using sarcasm as well

Where?  When?

To offer a solution, there must first be a problem.

While I understand the stated subject of this thread, I do not see it as a problem (except for use of the word "False").

Citing as a problem the act of women "Raising the Red Flag" is a problem in itself.

Women have valid reasons for employing "creep-dar" and avoiding men who trigger feelings of anxiety.

A man who objects to being constantly "creep-zoned" should look to himself before blaming women.

I agree with your final points entirely, which is why I must conclude that you either haven't read all of my previous posts, or you haven't understood them.

The problem that I've stated, is that the belief that the red flags are "false", is itself false. As opposed to them being real, and the individual refusing to accept that they are real and valid, and that the man's behavior is in fact inappropriate. As you've said, women have valid reasons for filtering out creeps.

Therefore I overly rejected the premise that the flags are false, and stated that it's likely that the individuals underestimated the severity of their behavior, or failed to realize the inappropriateness of it entirely. And that these same individuals refuse to acknowledge their wrongdoing, even when it is pointed out to them. As a result they blame it on a "false red flag" even though it's really the fella's own fault, and they don't want to see or hear or admit it.

Several women have also indicated that "awkward" isn't an issue, but when it becomes outright inappropriate, then yes, it's an issue. My initial solution suggested, was to actually listen to the feedback being given, and realize that it is NOT a "false red flag", it is a REAL red flag, and they're just self-blind to it. Rather than rotating through the first 4 stages of grief, it would behoove these fellas to try stage 5, and actually accept that they might in fact be wrong in some of their assumptions.

So long as they can't accept that reality, they won't change, and nothing else with change for them. Well, maybe it'll get worse, but it sure ain't gonna get better too easily. Not with with the attitude they demonstrate. Not with the mindset and expectations some of them have. It's not until they accept these things that they can actually even try to change in earnest - until then, no other advice really matters. As long as they don't think they're wrong, it'll be like dragging a mule, and they'll just resent every step of it as a forced performance, instead actually trying to be a better person.

In summary

Problem: The flags are not false, the guy's behavior is in fact at fault, they refuse to hear that, and instead blame it on everyone else.

Solution: Listen to feedback instead of making excuses, and take ownership of one's own behavior.