Poem about the Gospels

Post Reply New Topic

You refuse to give me any credit at all. For a Christian you have a lot of animosity towards the Christian religion and those who profess it. Can I have some validation, just a little bitty-bit? Or are we going to run me into the ground here?

I think that you are looking at this the wrong way. Why do you need me to validate your belief system?

That is what faith is all about - what you believe and have reasoned out. I have animosity towards those who would exalt their belief systems, based purely on faith, over the beliefs of others, and try to beat them down with it. As you have stated, this is not like you, therefore my animosity is not towards you, or Christians like you.

The truth is, I am not giving anyone any credit, and do not intend to. Each ideology in the world that I have studied is lacking something here or there, likely because it has been used for ill deeds at one time or another, thus I can give credit to none. If I could, I would choose not to, as faith is a matter of personal choice, not subject to my judgment.

If you want credit, ask another Christian with your exact beliefs, as I cannot give you, or anyone else, that.

Lauchlin

You say that each ideology you've studied is lacking something. You can state that as opinion, sure. Do you have an idealogy or belief-system of your own that I might relate to?

Talking about one's spiritual beliefs is really making oneself vulnerable., that is for sure. I don't want to feel criticized and not understand where my critic is coming from. Where are you coming from that you find criticismof me so easy? I am upset by this. Being critical is easy. Having convictions and the integrity to remain faithful to them is difficult.

I believe that there may be something out there that created something, though I am unsure of what it might be. I am very accepting of the fact that I don't know alot in the cosmic scheme of things, and it makes it a lot easier to keep an open mind about new ideas.

Spiritual belief is a sensitive topic. I just don't see why you feel I am criticizing you... I could have gone into quite a long tirade about the flaws in Christianity, and the comparative flaws in every other religious outlook that there is, all bounded around the fact that they expect people to believe in an invisible man that will not show himself, even though he is all powerful, and expects us to adore him and pray to him, even though he is perfect, and shouldn't need others to glorify him.

The secret here is, you feel criticized, but you aren't BEING criticized. I am simply saying that I don't agree with your point of view, and that from my perspective I have good reason.

I don't find criticism of anyone, as a whole, easy, but little points about what they do and why they do it are up for discussion. I truly don't know enough about the specifics of YOUR beliefs to criticize anything, hence why I have been keeping things very general, aside from defending people from others trying to bully and badmouth.

I really wish you wouldn't take it as being criticism, but I can do nothing about that aside from assuring you that I know you have good reason to believe what you believe, just as I have good reason to believe what I do.

As a final note, being critical is not easy, as one of the most difficult things in life is being objective - without objectivity, one is not being critical, one is being argumentative and condescending.

Having convictions, well founded, is a good thing, and staying faithful to them shows strength of character. Time and time again, though, with beliefs, it begs the question 'why do we hold fast to them'?

Lauchlin

Silly people, silly people. Only if they just saw clearly. The fact is, I'd rather listen all powerful being then some guy or gal on the internet.
The bible might look like it contradicts, but there three things to consider. One, it was written very very long ago. Some people mess it up for gain. The thing is, if you read the bible without reading explantion, your going to be confused. Take shakespears work. when you get cliff note for it, it makes MUCH more sence. Secondly, when you butcher the bible, cutting little peices out, it just maniputlatiing. Take the sentence: I did not murder my wife. Now, if you cut peices out, you can get "i did murder my wife". If the bible is not taken as whole, its not going to work. Third thing Realizing the diffrence between old and new testament. God did stuff diffrently back then. He changes the rules as he goes on. This why instead of people burning incease thru priest and sacficing, we listen and believe cause he send his own kid to flogged, peiced, and, the worse of all, be a human. But of course, people never seem to listen thru the internet. everyone who reads this will most likey find compulsion to find error due to lack of the holy spirit.

Back up there a minute. I didn't say I was talking about God. I only illustrated one possibility.

We don't know what makes a "fish" good or bad. All we know is that according to the Scriptures, bad fish go to Hell.

What if any old person in a wheelchair were considered a bad fish? How would you feel, then?

ThinkTank, I thank you for bringing up such an important point.

God has inspired a lot of wonderful things to be done in His Name, despite all the bad stuff. How can people love a bully & committ thier lives to that love? My old pastor from St. Ignatious, Fr. Joe, is not a man who has lived the priestly life because of abject terror.

A horrible abuser would not likely have inspired all the art and literature you can find in the world.

Think tank,

Thank you for your lovely display of absolute depravity and contradictory points, with no real flow or reason to them.

Do not tell me I am not thinking clearly - your three things to consider - it was written long ago, so was altered by people for their own gain - which means that, since that is what the church bases its preaching on, it can't be trusted.

As well, your supposed cliffs notes need of an explanation does not make any sense, as cliffs notes is an abbreviated version of the reality which often skims over important ideas, leaves out proper context, and can never give someone true knowledge of art or history, but only a glossy picture that is easily misunderstood and misleading.

Butchering the bible... interesting imagery. Speaking of a single sentence, taken clearly out of context, omitting the aforementioned context actually, is very different from trying to take a book as a whole. Yes, if not taken as a whole, it will not work, but IF taken as a whole, there are obvious contradictions.

And God did 'stuff' differently back then? God is supposed to be perfect. Perfection does not change. If he changed, was he wrong before? How can he be wrong? And my apologies, but I find it hard to trust in someone who is all powerful, and therefore could do anything in any way, and yet chose to create a being just to flog, string him up on a cross, and then let him die.

And being a human is bad? Anyone who would try to beguile someone, and make them feel like they are somehow substandard merely for being born human is, in my estimation, a horrible, beguiling bully.

And your disclaimer at the end of 'people not listening through the internet' is heavily disappointing. Instead of facts speaking for themselves and making logical sense, one must have the holy spirit, like any other drug, to make it make sense? That is what it sounds like.

Real truth should not need interpretation, should not need some special spirit inside to make it real. Otherwise, this implies that this God you speak of is giving part of himself to some and not to others. You will likely say 'we have to choose to bring him into our lives' to this comment I have made.

To that response I say, the only proof of this supposed God is a highly controversial book, written by people who had everything to gain by the spread of Christianity.

Keep in mind, if you try to piss in my back yard and call me foolish for not believing in your all powerful spook, who there is no guarantee even exists, then prepare for war.

You try to break my credibility by waving hey to an all powerful being - where IS your proof that there is an all powerful being? Where is your proof that this being actually wants you to follow him the way you do? Riddle me this, perchance.

SlowMutant, the whole point of the poem was to state that there is a huge contradiction, and that the Biblical God is portrayed as a bully at many points. The larger point for me is that people tend to just FORGET that portion and think of the Christian God in terms of the new testament excerpts of being loving and wonderful and forgiving.

Some people do commit their lives to that out of fear, but it is a lot more complicated than that.

If a person commits their life to something because they figure if they don't they will be sent to hell, that is fear - more complicated than 'ah, a spider' but it is fear nevertheless. Whether he has inspired great things or not, it doesn't change the bad things that he has done.

People's tendency, again, is to forget the bad parts, latch onto the good, and think of themselves as chosen, which inspires great art - but lets not forget that the fuel of Naziism was religious. The holocaust was based on Hitler's outlook that HIS people were the chosen of God, were superior to the rest of the world. Lets not forget that the Crusades, the punishment and persecution of women, racism, all have religious roots.

Yes, many good things have been inspired and happened because of Christianity, but that does not erase the many that have died because of it - even the martyrs who only died to stand up and say 'I believe in God' when they could have taught in secret, spread the word, helped people over time, instead of throwing their life away needlessly.

Whether that was the work of God or not is a debate for another time, but religion inspired these things along with all of these good works you mention.

Lauchlin

I don't ignore the bad parts. I tend to think the OT God was portrayed in such a way as to refllect the stern authoritarianism of human authorities. The old Jewish Authorities wre pretty serious about most things. They had 600 commandments to live by. So the Old Testament was about that mindset.

The God I believe is more New Testament. The NT pertains more to me than a Jewish person.

Lauchlin, you seem to have become a bully yourself. You really have a lot of hatred and anger in yourself, an incredible amout of both. Flaming other people is not a good way to be in.

Just burn down a church and get this stuff over with.

I am defending myself.

We were having an effective discussion, and then he came in and started calling me foolish, absolutely bastardizing the English language and making highly ineffective comparisons that are misleading and beguiling.

And I am getting frustrated, too, I suppose, because of the comments being made... for someone to be a Christian, they have to follow the Bible. For them to follow the Bible, they have to believe that Jesus came to fulfill the Old Testament, and that the God of the OT IS the God of the NT.

Am I angry - yes, I am. With good reason? I believe so. I am not bullying, I am responding in kind to what I am being given. I do not think it was kind of Think Tank to walk with his 'holier than thou attitude' of how he is right, I am wrong and I would know that if I wasn't so foolish, and believed everything he did.

I hope now he knows how it feels

And I hope he also realizes that if he hopes to win any debates, he better add some coherency to his prose.

Lauchlin

This kind of antogonistic feud will devour every joule of energy you put into it. And then more. More and more and more. The more you argue and feud, the more of your life gets pulled down into it. It's a bottomless pit, Lauchlin. It really is.

Is it wrong to not see the point in believing in the invisible, just because a controlling organization says I should?

Is it foolish to want proof that a person can see before dedicating my life to it?

I would say that belief without evidence is a bottomless pit of irrationality, but I still accept the possibility that these things are real, as opposed to trying to smack down other people's outlooks with vague comments of 'if you only knew what I know'

Belief is not an easy thing, and was not meant to be flaunted like a new fur coat.

Belief isn't easy. It isn't safe. It isn't a small matter.

I would agree - that is why I don't understand why so many people DO just believe so easily, without any seeming examination of the belief structure, nor do I understand why it IS flaunted.

You don't seem to do that, as far as I can see, which is much appreciated, but so many others do.

Change God's mind? God isn't a flesh-and-blood person who can be intimidated, you know. I sense you ain't kidding about this. Don't know what to tell you. Other than it's utter futlility. Might as well try and convince the rain to quit being so damned wet.