Dislike of Metal

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RushKing
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17 Feb 2016, 10:47 am

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:

Yeah

And whats really annoying is that the dynamic masters are usually only available vinyl.

I shouldn't have to buy a big expensive record player to hear a proper master. These people should be doing their jobs and stop compressing the crap out of the digital versions.

Even Swanö is guilty of this, though he uses tricks to make it sound better.

RushKing
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17 Feb 2016, 11:23 am

I know a lot of people rip on black metal for poor production. But a lot of the 90s stuff was dynamic on CD. Summoning's Dol Guldur for instance wasn't that bad on digital.

Sweetleaf
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17 Feb 2016, 12:08 pm

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:

I'm a metal fan myself, but I can see why people wouldn't like it, and frankly, most metal artists nowadays suffer from HORRIBLE loudness war-driven production. I know metal is supposed to be heavy, but that DOESN'T mean it's supposed to be at a near constant 0dbfs.

Nightwish, who have otherwise beautiful, melodic arrangements in their songs, suffer greatly from this, as do Children of Bodom and Amon Amarth. Metallica are also quite notorious for their spotty history with album production, ranging from the lack of bass guitar on "...And Justice For All", to the Pro Tools-driven faux-"garage band" sound they went for on "St. Anger", and the crazily brickwalled stuff they've been putting out since "Death Magnetic". I still enjoy all these bands on a musical level, but production-wise, there's room for improvement.

Whenever I listen to old 70s bands like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, or Black Sabbath, I can't help but think "wow, this production is awesome, the instruments are vibrant, and everything actually has breathing room!" Like, I know most metal bands are trying to go for a harsher, more aggressive sound, but I think it would be great if bands like Metallica, Nightwish, etc. looked back on these older production/mastering techniques and applied them to their music. I mean, on the original 1988 version of Megadeth's seminal album "So Far, So Good, So What!", they managed to achieve a raw, thrashy sound while still keeping a good amount of dynamics. Unfortunately, the 2004 remaster, which seems to be the only version widely available nowadays, not only cuts the dynamic range in half, but they also re-recorded a bunch of it as well! It's not even the same f*****g album, it's a sh***y remake!

TL;DR, the loudness war sucks and metal suffers for it.

I am not sure what you mean with Children of Bodom or Amon Amarth, they both sound great to me not too heavy, decent listenable vocals...and only sounds overly loud if you turn it up that much. But meh I wouldn't know the first thing about producing music so who knows...I just wouldn't describe those bands as having music that 'suffers greatly' seems like it sounds just how its meant to.

Also aren't older production methods dated? meaning they'd have to round up more or less vintage equipment that may or may not even be compatible with new production methods and technology. Its a cool idea, but not so sure it would be so easy to go about.

Also though Pink Floyd, Zeppelin and Sabbath aren't extreme metal bands....if the bands you mentioned didn't want to play more extreme genres like thrash, death/melodic death then maybe they would do more to take after the sound/production quality of those bands, but not so sure old production equipment would even properly handle that kind of music.

Also I thought loudness war was when music is too loud a decibel even at lower volume or something, like obnoxious pop music and screamo with screaming vocals liable to destroy the vocalists vocal chords....but maybe I am not quite understanding what it means. Just doesn't seem even most the bands you mentioned have an attitude that would warrant them to actively participate in some battle for loudness.

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RushKing
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17 Feb 2016, 12:47 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Also I thought loudness war was when music is too loud a decibel even at lower volume or something, like obnoxious pop music and screamo with screaming vocals liable to destroy the vocalists vocal chords....but maybe I am not quite understanding what it means. Just doesn't seem even most the bands you mentioned have an attitude that would warrant them to actively participate in some battle for loudness.

Well it looks like bodom have loudness war on a lot of their issues. Not all of them though.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list? ... dom&album=

Last edited by RushKing on 17 Feb 2016, 1:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Sweetleaf
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17 Feb 2016, 1:06 pm

RushKing wrote:

Well it looks like bodom have loudness war on a lot of their issues. Not all of them though.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list? ... dom&album=

I cant say I understand that at all....is 'loudness war' even an intentional thing or more something that can just occur with recording regardless of intent? I can't see them intentionally adding more loudness in their music at the cost of sound quality. I just don't get it at all.

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RushKing
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17 Feb 2016, 1:15 pm

Loudness war happens when the variety in volume levels within are tracks squeezed out. The original recording will usually have adequate breathing room so that peaks in volume aren't cut off. But with loudness war the peaks in volume end up getting clipped in order to make the track as a whole louder. So the snare drum (which is usually the loudest sound in metal recordings) ends up getting clipped and the music ends up sounding less lively and is fatiguing when you crank up the volume.

Sweetleaf
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17 Feb 2016, 1:24 pm

RushKing wrote:

Loudness war happens when the variety in volume levels within are tracks squeezed out.. The original recording will usually have an adequate space so that peaks in volume aren't cut off. But with loudness war the peaks in volume end up getting clipped in order to make the track as a whole louder. So the snare drum (which is usually the loudest sound in metal recordings) ends up getting clipped and the the track as a whole ends up sounding less lively and fatiguing.

For some reason to me it sounds more like an attempt to even out the volume so one aspect isn't overwhelming everything else. Maybe snare is the loudest on the base recording, but who wants snare to be the loudest thing they hear in a metal song? I guess I fail to see how clipping peaks in volume is specifically an attempt to just make the whole track louder. Especially with Children of bodom and Alexi and Jaan with their amazing guitar and keyboard skills I can't see them willfully wanting to sacrifice sound solely for loudness. Lol if anything I could see them toning down everything else just a little to empathize those parts.

Also though is the original recording usually compatible with digital music technology, or being put into an mp3 form for instance or does it more or less have to be compressed to be put out there on CD or MP3? Seems like that kind of thing could contribute, the creating of digital formants and such.

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Aristophanes
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17 Feb 2016, 1:31 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Well it looks like bodom have loudness war on a lot of their issues. Not all of them though.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list? ... dom&album=

The "loudness wars" are a design of industry itself not the art of music. Back in the late 80's the industry figured out that psychologically, humans prefer louder sounds, thus louder music = more music sales. Since that point in time production companies have been overly compressing the s**t out of music trying to make their music "louder" than their competitors. It has absolutely nothing to do with art and everything to do with $.

You can say, ah, well, doesn't bother me, don't care; but, the way compression works is important-- it cuts out the small details of performance to "crunch" or compress the sound. So you've made a sound louder, but the cost is the "feeling" of the performance/recording. Ever wonder why virtually every album since 1990 sounds eerily the same (like it was all produced by 1 person) whereas something before that date sounds markedly different? That would be compression and limiting (an extreme form of compression). It literally cuts the uniqueness out of music and makes it all sound cookie cutter-- even good music and musicians sound like s**t when it's been overly compressed.

Now that I think of it, the "loudness wars" are like a f*****g virus, they'll just keep doubling down on compression like crack until there's no more headroom to compress. Pretty sick.

Aristophanes
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17 Feb 2016, 1:41 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Yes, that's how you're supposed to use compression: make s**t fit inside the mix. But, that's not what's happening. Now they don't even give you the full snare sound you talk about. 1. They'll cut out the attack, it's barely perceptible (still perceptible, but barely) so they'll cut that out so it doesn't interfere with the hi-hat. 2. They'll extend the decay of the snare by reverb (the ear can identify the decay of a snare more than the attack). 3. They'll compress the s**t out of the resulting sound just so it's loud (one could easily do that with a simple fader, but it won't seem as "loud").

Think of it this way: you go to a restaurant and order a steak but what the restaurant actually does is take a rat, cut it in half, tenderize the back half till it stretches to as big as a steak, and then they throw it in the microwave for a quick cook. They can sell it as a steak and hell maybe even convince a lot of consumers it's a steak-- but it's still not a steak, it's just an overly processed rat. Same with my f'cking snare drum, they're giving me overly manipulated s**t that doesn't even sound like a snare to me and I want the real f'cking snare.

RushKing
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17 Feb 2016, 1:43 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

When you clip, you are also removing empty space in the graph so everything in the track is always near or at peak volume.

Quote:

Also though is the original recording usually compatible with digital music technology, or being put into an mp3 form for instance or does it more or less have to be compressed to be put out there on CD or MP3? Seems like that kind of thing could contribute, the creating of digital formants and such.

Most modern recordings are done with digital technology, but for whatever reason people will often clip for the digital releases, and save the dynamic masters for vinyl. CDs are capable of more DR than vinyls. But the CD is often treated like a second class citizen.

Last edited by RushKing on 17 Feb 2016, 2:13 pm, edited 6 times in total.

NoName93
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17 Feb 2016, 1:56 pm

For me metal is the best genre of music

Sweetleaf
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17 Feb 2016, 2:00 pm

Aristophanes wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Alright that makes sense, I could see the end sound not even sounding like a snare being irritating...when that is the sound you want, that is certainly overdoing it. I just certainly wouldn't describe Children of Bodom or most other metal I listen to as an overly processed rat...they don't sound that overly processed, not going to say this isn't at all a problem in metal I mean there isn't a way to be completely isolated from all modern production trends outside of refusing any outside production and learning to produce yourself...which I imagine not every metal musician would be too great at.

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Sweetleaf
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17 Feb 2016, 2:03 pm

RushKing wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

When you clip, you are removing empty space in the graph so everything in the track is always near or at peak volume.

Quote:

Most modern recordings are done with digital technology, but for whatever reason people will often clip for the digital releases, and save the dynamic masters for vinyl.

Well are the dynamic masters compatible with the digital technology as they are? Or is there always some amount of clipping necessary that would be my question. And then if so I imagine the issue lies in overdoing it...but if the dynamic masters where perfectly compatible not sure why they'd bother with any clipping or altering.

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Aristophanes
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17 Feb 2016, 2:05 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

I don't listen to metal, so I can't really compare the band you mentioned to anything else, but I would assume it's actually less prominent in that genre: they probably use a lot more than other genres, but because of so much use it's probably less noticeable when they use more. But yeah, it is really annoying, especially being autistic and picking out all the small details, and then to find out they're all gone...like eating a peanut butter cup where someone already ate the peanut butter out.

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17 Feb 2016, 2:15 pm

The reason I brought up Children of Bodom is because I decided to listen to a FLAC rip I made of "Hate Crew Deathroll", from the original CD. I love this album, and the music on it kicks ass, but I couldn't help but notice just how squashed and compressed it all was. It sounded like I was listening to a crappy low-bitrate MP3 rip, and not something clean and lossless.

I wouldn't pin the blame on the band though, but rather the people who produced the album. I know they were probably trying to go for a loud, bombastic sound, but they could have given the instrumental tracks some more room to breathe so that they would have more clarity. At the very least, they could have done a more professional-sounding master. To my ears, producing a muddy, squashed-together master is much worse than making one that's simply loud.

Now, someone here mentioned that vinyl masters often sound better, and while this may be true for a lot of newer albums, I find it somewhat bizarre since one of the original selling points of CDs was that they provided a greater amount of dynamic range compared to vinyl. Of course, vinyl has physical limitations that prevent the same type of loudness war production you see on CDs, so this means albums have to be mastered more conservatively for it. Plus, since vinyl has established this reputation as being a collector/audiophile format, I think this also explains why albums are better mastered for it.

Anyway, does anyone here have any CoB vinyl? How do the masters compare to their CDs? I'd love to get back into vinyl collecting someday when I have more disposable income... and a proper setup to play records on. I don't even own a hi-fi, let alone a turntable.

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Sweetleaf
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17 Feb 2016, 3:28 pm

Aristophanes wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Yeah it was just kind of a basic graph that put some of their songs in the range of being effected by that, but I'd assume its less prominent over-all as well than in perhaps more popular music. But yeah I can't even listen to Pink Floyd on CD unless I have some good headphones or speakers that can make up for it in combination with adjusting any sound settings I can.

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