Got Goth?
18 Dec 2006, 10:55 pm
It's good that you feel so passionately about a subject that you have gone to great lengths studying it's history and all it's different variations, but calling someone a fake just because their idea of a rather (to most people) vague and complex subculture is frankly unacceptable.
Persecuting someone because their definiton of the term "Goth", when you titled the post with that word, you didn't specify a type of "Goth" and you didn't define this type, is arrogant and unjust.
Who says that your defdiniton of "Goth" is accurate and applicable to all "Goths"?
For the record, i am not a "Goth"; i listen to some "Gothic Music", read some "Gothic Literature", admire some "Gothic Art" and appreciate some "Gothic Styles and Clothing."
I'm sorry if i am being rather harsh but it is this type of social elitism that i find extremely disturbing, not only are people being abused because they are different, they are being abused because they are a different type of different to you.
Can't you just appreciate that everyone sees the world differently to you, and that everyone has different perceptions and opinions about, what is essentially a word.
I am completely ok with them being what they are, but that's not what they're doing, they're taking a term and using it for all the wrong reasons (I can only assume) in all the wrong ways.
And people insulting me isn't helping.
_________________
"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat." - Terry Bisson
18 Dec 2006, 11:15 pm
I wasn't talking about your goth culture--you repeatedly thought I was, such as when you thought I was insulting it at the beginning. I was talking about the way most of the goths I've known, and the goths I have met, and the goths I have seen the profiles and what not of. Most of them have been into S&M, raves, drugs, and promiscuous sex. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. I'm sure that old goth culture isn't like that, but it's how it is for a lot of modern, self-proclaimed goths these days--at least in the US. Certainly not all of them are like that--I'm an example--but quite a few are. Don't think I'm saying bad things about your culture when there are two different cultures here.
There's simply no way you can tell me what I think as gothic is not gothic, and there's no way I'm going to be able to convince you it is. Try to understand--you're my first exposure into the world of traditional goth culture, man. The stuff I've been talking about is all stuff that has been associated with goths in everything I've read--plenty of web sites (for example Sims 2 clothing that is described as "goth," "fetish," "vampire," etc.--it all has a similar pattern) to message boards (I've heard "Underworld" be described as "one of the best goth movies" by many people) to loads of art sites and models (such as Elva, a goth/fetish model who runs an S&M club in Sweeden), and of course PEOPLE who are all into this stuff and have called themselves gothic. I'm sorry, but this is what I view as gothic. You can tell me it's wrong all you want, but it just sounds like you're basing this opinion off of an outdated book rather than seeing the rest of the world's point of view. Again, I'm not in Australia, I dunno how different it is there, but here everything that's considered gothic by pretty much everyone is, well, what I've been describing this whole time.
About subcultures...In America, every culture is a subculture because there's no singular mainstream culture. There's a lot of them...and Gothic isn't really one of them. There are a shedload of different cultures and they all have clashing social values and ettiquettes and expected attitudes and what not. So I call them all subcultures, because none of them are 100% mainstream--there's just too many of them for everybody to fit into it. Now, Neo Goth is more mainstream, certainly, but it still calls itself Gothic and there's nothing either of us can do to change that, so the best we can do is accomodate, forgo the historical definition and adapt to it all.
I don't think that traditional is superfluous, because there's still that other neo-gothic culture, the culture I've been describing. Since you wouldn't want to be falsely associated with that, adding the term "traditional" helps lessen the confusion of it all. But if you want to be stubborn, be my guest. Maybe my usage of the word "gothic" is not commonly accepted by traditional goths, but again, my whole outlook on what goth is has been shaped by too many sources to count, none of which have been or been by traditional goths and all of which have been or been by modern goths. Maybe loads of traditional goths are still in existance, but I haven't heard of any until now.
Rest assured, I've read your posts. Multiple times in some cases to fully wrap my head around them, since it's all such a major clash with everything else I've read. I just disagree because I have a different view on gothic than you do. I base my analysis on gothic culture by what I see and hear and experience, not by what I read in some old book. I base my opinions of genres by what I hear bands being labeled and how I compare that to other bands with those labels. And if that makes me a media whore, so be it--it's the style I love, and yes, it IS a style on its own. I can hear the differences in the music, and I can see the differences in the visual stylings, and no book or website can argue with what I hear with my own ears and see with my own eyes.
Well you mentioned a Subculture, and by deffinition what you are talking about is not a Subculture.
I have stated it over and over again, I don't care about what is Gothic, maybe what you call Gothic IS Gothic, but that's not the main point, the main point is that what you talk about is not linked to Goth Culture, which I'm pretty sure we already settled. And once again I am not basing this off of a book, I am basing this off of conversations with endless amounts of Goths, I don't even have a Book about what Goth is, I just know that there are alot of Books out there that are written by people HEAVILY admired by Goth Culture as being people who have written hugely comprehensive books on what Goth is and it's history, the most important being is Voltaire, and Mick Mercer, but if you don't trust them there is still the Groups I listed on MySpace. Why not try doing your own research?
Then why is it possible to "become" a Neo Goth just by walking into a store (Hot Topic)? These are facts I've have gotten from people in the Goth Culture over in America.
No, it would just create more confusion, as to most people Goth doesn't have a history beyond The Crow, and to Goths it would make them think that I solely appreciate the Traditional side of Goth, which isn't true, there are also slightly arrogant conotations.
And since it's clashes with what you know it's wrong? "I just disagree because I have a different view on gothic than you do." Because that's certianly what it sounds like, anyway I've given you more than enough ways to find out the stuff that I know repeatedly.
_________________
"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat." - Terry Bisson
19 Dec 2006, 12:28 am
And people insulting me isn't helping.
I'm honestly sorry if I ever insulted you, but if I did I didn't realize it. I asked you to articulate what you meant because you confused me, and said that some of the things you were saying were BS, and I explained some of the things I didn't like about the gothic culture that I saw--things that in my experience ARE true. I hardly consider that insulting...but if there's something I missed, well, I'm sorry.
Also, you know, it's not like I was the one who decided to apply the word gothic to all this stuff. I'm just going with the flow about it because there's no way to change such a mass amount of misconceptions, and because nobody has a word to replace it all, to cover up this entire style. Spreading the truth is great, but you're not going to do it by telling everyone they're a bunch of fakes who are living a lie. Again, this is a distinctive culture we're talking about...kinda hard to change the entire name of something like that.
Sorry--that's the way the term is used in my experience. People talk about this sort of thing as subcultures quite often. What should I call it? Goth culture, rather than the Goth subculture?
Evidently not. I will talk about this below.
It's not that I don't trust them, and it's not that I haven't done research. And as I have said, I have based my views on countless conversations and viewings of Goths and Gothic profiles and groups, too. You keep accusing me of not doing research, but it's not that I haven't. You just discount it all because it conflicts with yours, and because I have no idea how to link you to it all.
This world sure is wide, huh?
As I have said countless times, I understand what you're saying about your Goth culture, but there are two cultures, and the one I love has no relation to goth history, something you've already established many times. And since we're talking about two different kinds of goth here, and your gothic culture isn't the gothic culture I like, what's the point in me researching it more? So I can get into more debates? No thanks. I'll research my own gothic culture, the one that I do (mostly) like.
Hey, I never said that! Hot Topic is bullshit--not for preps (not everything that's mainstream is automatically prep or pop--think of gangsters pimp wannabes!), but definately mostly for conformists and posers. It goes way deeper than that. I definately don't think that just dressing like a goth makes you a goth, hell I've never even been in a HT store. It's a combination of so much more--one's soul, one's mood, one's personality...as well as one's taste. I do think musical taste is a big part of it. Culture, again, is a combination of music and art and language and ettiquette and all of that stuff I mentioned before. If you're a part of that, then I don't see how you're not a part of that culture, because that's what culture is.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/culture
This is the definition that applies here:
5 a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time <popular culture> <southern culture> c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization <a corporate culture focused on the bottom line> d : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic <studying the effect of computers on print culture> <changing the culture of materialism will take time -- Peggy O'Mara>
Again, remember that these are two different cultures we're talking about.
And, you know, about pop...Mainstream and pop aren't the same thing. Pop is a genre, one that I absolutely cannot stand, one with a happy tone. Something can be mainstream without being pop. Again, I bring up NIN, and Nightwish for that matter--obviously not pop, but still mainstream. Mood and tone are some of the most important things in defining genres, and the things I pay most attention to in music...calling MM and Evanescence Pop shows a complete disregard for tone and mood, and it goes the same way with culture. Culture has a tone, and a mood, and in the gothic culture I know, it's a very distinctive one.
Well, those are definately good reasons not to--I didn't know you liked some things about Neo-Goth, you haven't said one positive thing about it thus far. I dunno, man. I was just trying to find a way to differentiate the two cultures so debates like this wouldn't get so hideously convoluted.
Well, you kind of have the same motto going, man. Hate to break it to you. Now, I don't disagree with you about the history. I don't doubt that you have more experience than I...but that doesn't mean that my experience isn't without merit, because the thing is, we're talking about two different cultures! And this whole conversation has just been so stupid because of that simple fact. My gothic is one way, your gothic is another way. In my gothic culture, there's a certain style of music and clothing (not just Hot Topic!) and artwork and visuals and settings and subject matter and and make up and ettiquette and all of that, and even within that there are variations. (The Industrial Goths, the Romantic Goths, the Fantasy Goths, the Fetish Goths, the Punk Goths, the Vampire Goths, etc.--none of which are mutually exclusive, of course, since most people are a combination of them.) And in your gothic, for all I know all of that's different--I don't know for sure, and honestly I don't really care. I'm sorry. I know what I like, and practically everything I like has been called some form of gothic, and I can see and hear the differences between it and all the other styles that there are. That's enough for me. I don't need to know about the past or how it all got started. I mean, hell, this is a social label when you get down to it, and every individual is (hopefully) going to be a little different. We argue about nothing.
Last edited by Veresae on 19 Dec 2006, 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
19 Dec 2006, 12:44 am
Oh, I don't blame you. This whole arguement is ridiculous and based on a lot of foolish assumption-making and miscommunication from both camps. (I'll certainly admit to a lot of that by now.)
THANK you!
This arguement is living proof of that you can't define something like this, there's just too much variation in any given stereotype, no matter how much it seems like there isn't to outsiders. People are people. However, there are cultural trends, certain stylistic and tonal patterns that you can find in most things that are called "gothic"--at least in my experience. But when we're talking about people, it gets waaaaay more complicated.
19 Dec 2006, 11:28 pm
Ah good choice sir, there local to me, so local ive had a drink with Paul n the gang several times before
Of all the things to come from Stevenage...
Ummm, sorry but at the time that I posted this there was a picture of Red Lorry Yellow Lorry, not a picture of Carl, you got here a little late.
_________________
"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat." - Terry Bisson
20 Dec 2006, 12:30 am
'I'm honestly sorry if I ever insulted you, but if I did I didn't realize it. I asked you to articulate what you meant because you confused me, and said that some of the things you were saying were BS, and I explained some of the things I didn't like about the gothic culture that I saw--things that in my experience ARE true. I hardly consider that insulting...but if there's something I missed, well, I'm sorry.
Also, you know, it's not like I was the one who decided to apply the word gothic to all this stuff. I'm just going with the flow about it because there's no way to change such a mass amount of misconceptions, and because nobody has a word to replace it all, to cover up this entire style. Spreading the truth is great, but you're not going to do it by telling everyone they're a bunch of fakes who are living a lie. Again, this is a distinctive culture we're talking about...kinda hard to change the entire name of something like that.'
You should have checked to see if you were right about what you were saying, you know, gone to a Goth Group and asked around, instead of just doing what you did, I know this is all good in hindsight but it seems pretty common sense to me, I mean do you really think an Aspie would be in the dark about one of his interests?
Anyway the term isn't consistant, in some places Goth is considered Emo, in other places Goth is considered Metal, in other places all of those are in the same boat, and in the UK Goth is pretty well known, the whole Neo Goth thing is pretty much regulated to some parts of America.
'Sorry--that's the way the term is used in my experience. People talk about this sort of thing as subcultures quite often. What should I call it? Goth culture, rather than the Goth subculture? '
Maybe Pop Culture Phenomenon? In any case using a word that is already used for something else that is similiar will only serve to cause more confusion.
'It's not that I don't trust them, and it's not that I haven't done research. And as I have said, I have based my views on countless conversations and viewings of Goths and Gothic profiles and groups, too. You keep accusing me of not doing research, but it's not that I haven't. You just discount it all because it conflicts with yours, and because I have no idea how to link you to it all.
This world sure is wide, huh?
As I have said countless times, I understand what you're saying about your Goth culture, but there are two cultures, and the one I love has no relation to goth history, something you've already established many times. And since we're talking about two different kinds of goth here, and your gothic culture isn't the gothic culture I like, what's the point in me researching it more? So I can get into more debates? No thanks. I'll research my own gothic culture, the one that I do (mostly) like.'
Discount what? The idea that Neo Goth evolved out of Goths? I have respectable sources to back up what I'm saying, yet all you have is what could be biased sources, why shouldn't I doubt what you say?
I don't know, you're the one that seemed so interested in seeing this proof that I had at the start.
'Hey, I never said that! Hot Topic is bullshit--not for preps (not everything that's mainstream is automatically prep or pop--think of gangsters pimp wannabes!), but definately mostly for conformists and posers. It goes way deeper than that. I definately don't think that just dressing like a goth makes you a goth, hell I've never even been in a HT store. It's a combination of so much more--one's soul, one's mood, one's personality...as well as one's taste. I do think musical taste is a big part of it. Culture, again, is a combination of music and art and language and ettiquette and all of that stuff I mentioned before. If you're a part of that, then I don't see how you're not a part of that culture, because that's what culture is.
Again, remember that these are two different cultures we're talking about.
And, you know, about pop...Mainstream and pop aren't the same thing. Pop is a genre, one that I absolutely cannot stand, one with a happy tone. Something can be mainstream without being pop. Again, I bring up NIN, and Nightwish for that matter--obviously not pop, but still mainstream. Mood and tone are some of the most important things in defining genres, and the things I pay most attention to in music...calling MM and Evanescence Pop shows a complete disregard for tone and mood, and it goes the same way with culture. Culture has a tone, and a mood, and in the gothic culture I know, it's a very distinctive one. '
I'm pretty sure that was the popular thing for a while, it certainly seems to have faded now though, but it was popular for a while. Well alot of Neo Goths might disagree with you, I've seen ones that think labels are stupid, then go and calls themselves Goths, I've seen ones that think it's all about "Having a dark soul" or some crap like that, basically a whole rainbow of ideas of what Goth is mean to be, not to mention interests, attitudes, and clothing styles, in fact there doesn't really seem to be any common ground with them at all.
Yeah but I use Pop and Mainstream to mean pretty much the same thing.
'Well, those are definately good reasons not to--I didn't know you liked some things about Neo-Goth, you haven't said one positive thing about it thus far. I dunno, man. I was just trying to find a way to differentiate the two cultures so debates like this wouldn't get so hideously convoluted.'
I have a ton of good reasons not to like them, in my experience, they're just kids who want to fit in with Goths, or think they already do but don't, and in both cases they are extremely ignorant of the Goth Subculture, this doesn't mean I don't like them automatically, but it does mean they give off a bad impression. And yes I have liked several Neo Goth bands, I have a ton of NIN songs, I still have a bunch of Marilyn Manson songs, ect, but that wasn't what I was saying, Traditional Goth would make people think I was solely into old Goth bands, and such things, it simply doesn't express all of my interests, I think I'd be closer to being a mix of Trad Goth, Industrial Goth, Deathrocker, Romantigoth, and Fantasy Goth, I even have a test on my profile which expresses those very sentiments, anyway onto the next Paragraph.
'Well, you kind of have the same motto going, man. Hate to break it to you. Now, I don't disagree with you about the history. I don't doubt that you have more experience than I...but that doesn't mean that my experience isn't without merit, because the thing is, we're talking about two different cultures! And this whole conversation has just been so stupid because of that simple fact. My gothic is one way, your gothic is another way. In my gothic culture, there's a certain style of music and clothing (not just Hot Topic!) and artwork and visuals and settings and subject matter and and make up and ettiquette and all of that, and even within that there are variations. (The Industrial Goths, the Romantic Goths, the Fantasy Goths, the Fetish Goths, the Punk Goths, the Vampire Goths, etc.--none of which are mutually exclusive, of course, since most people are a combination of them.) And in your gothic, for all I know all of that's different--I don't know for sure, and honestly I don't really care. I'm sorry. I know what I like, and practically everything I like has been called some form of gothic, and I can see and hear the differences between it and all the other styles that there are. That's enough for me. I don't need to know about the past or how it all got started. I mean, hell, this is a social label when you get down to it, and every individual is (hopefully) going to be a little different. We argue about nothing.'
I think I already made it clear that I have already had experience with your Phenomenon/Culture. Sorry? "And in your gothic, for all I know all of that's different"? Those things are all staples of Goth Culture, they don't have anything to do with Neo Goths, except for the fact that they get confused with them, but I don't disagree with you just because you have a different point of view, that would be extremely close minded, I simply disagree because you haven't got any infomation on Goth Culture, and I happen to have intomation on what you call Goth Culture, as I used to be into it myself, I just didn't think of it as Goth.
Ok, just don't bring Post-modernism into this, and don't even think about Nihilism.
_________________
"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat." - Terry Bisson
20 Dec 2006, 9:14 am
Veresae, I just stumbled across an Article on Wikipedia which seems to indicate what you said about Neo Goths being a part of a Subculture is true, although not in the way you might have expected (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neogoth), it seems to indicate that Industrial and Metal are the key interests, I'll have to do more research on this, but it sounds as if the people you talked to aren't Neo Goths at all.
_________________
"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat." - Terry Bisson
20 Dec 2006, 8:29 pm
I never called you ignorant about your main interests, I just took offense when you insulted one of MY major interests (the culture(s) I've been describing). Do you really think I'd be that ignorant about one of MY major interests? o.O
Exactly why this whole debate is pointless--goth means different things to different people.
I disagree. I think it'd cause more confusion to stop using goth in this way because it's way too widespread. I'm not going to stop calling something gothic just because it can mean more than one thing to different people.
No, that was a false assumption that I already appologized for.
I wasn't interested in proof, I was confused because I'd never seen goth used in this way before and I was angry that you were insulting everything I loved, calling it fake and ignorant--which I said was full of s**t, and I still think that. I'm not arguing with you about how traditional goth is, but I think it's just arrogant to accuse everyone of being fake media whores when many of them are just being themselves and idenitfying with a culture, and using the title that everyone around them has used to describe this culture. Everything mushroomed from there.
There's a lot of variation. I do think that there is common ground, though--all the goth styles are dark (even Emo's), many of them tend to be a little tormented, or having a slight sense of dementia...many of them tend to be outcast saddened by or angered by society.
That's incorrect usage. Sorry man. Pop is a genre. Mainstream just means a wide audience. Not the same thing at all. If they were the same thing, then I'd hate a lot of my favorite bands, because there are practically no pop bands that I can tollerate. I don't think it's bad to be mainstream, even though I hate the pop genre...it's way easier to find people who like a mainstream band, wheres for an underground band you can search and search and search and it'll be hard as hell to find anyone who's even HEARD of them! Plus, it means the band members are actually getting a decent amount of money for their work. Underground bands don't get enough credit, really, so when an underground band I like breaks into the mainstream I'm actually happy about it. Heh.
Okay. ^_^
Again you assume I have no information. I just don't know how to link you to it all because I lack a definitive source. It's a combination of a lot of little things, and taken together it's just way too much for me to just narrow in on just a few to link to. It's just too much. This thing is said to be gothic, THAT thing is said to be gothic, etc. Even for things I dislike that are called gothic I still recognize a pattern or can see how they're gothic. I guess I just have a much wider idea about what gothic can be. Maybe some people have overused the term but I still see a lot of similarities between all those things that are called gothic, so I don't think so.
I dunno. I wasn't the one who termed it that...I've talked and heard of and heard from people who have called themselves Goths but weren't the original style of goth (these were also all people who seemed gothic to me based on my perspective of what gothic was), so you can call it what you want from there.
21 Dec 2006, 7:19 pm
By the way, what do you think of the band Angelspit? I just discovered them today, and I know they kind of count as Industrial; I ask because there's a review from Mick Mercer on their new album's page.
http://www.angelspit.net/press/mickmercer-krankhaus.htm
