Dislike of Metal

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I only have a couple of their CDs and probably some MP3s, but if I get a chance to pick up a vinyl of theirs I shall certainly compare. And aside from that I have also seen them in concert which they are pretty good live.

This discussion has enlightened me into something I wasn't even aware was happening.

I mean, maybe I like the "loudness wars" because vinyl sounds like s**t to me and recordings from more than 20 years ago are a rough listen for me because they are just way too low. I mean on the dynamic range data base, vinyl is always far better than CD. This I cannot comprehend as vinyl sounds crappy to me.

In the context of metal I still have to believe there is a reasoning behind why these techniques are used. If it is that prevalent across all metal bands there must be a reason.

I just looked up basically every album I'd actually listen to (that was listed on the site which was about 50% of what I looked up) and 90-95% of them were in the red and none in the green except a few recordings from nine inch nails.

I guess maybe I just fail to fully understand what is meant by "dynamic range" even though a few of you did a fine job in giving an overview.

Another point that occurred to me about this issue is a large percentage of metal bands do not really make much money off of selling the albums. So the motivation to invest more time and money to pursue perfection simply isn't feasible at some point.

There ARE people who like the loudness war sound, and done right, I think it actually works under certain circumstances (i.e. Merzbow's album "Venereology", said to be the loudest CD ever pressed). I don't mind loudness so much as I mind overcompression, when all the instruments are so tightly packed together that the sound quality deteriorates and you have a hard time picking the individual instruments apart. Children of Bodom has this problem, Nightwish has this problem, and surprisingly, mainstream radio-friendly modern rock bands like Billy Talent seem to suffer from this problem even more.

I think loudness-war production rears its ugly head more when you try listening to music produced this way on higher end equipment. I used to live with a friend whose stepdad had a wonderful sounding stereo system, a collection of over 4000 LPs, and countless albums in other formats. This guy was a big audiophile, and while he was away, I decided to try out some of my albums on his setup. CoB's "Hate Crew Deathroll" sounded like crap, Skrillex's "Scary Monsters and Nice Sprites" sounded like crap, even Nine Inch Nails' "Pretty Hate Machine", an album I absolutely adore, sounded terrible on this setup. It confused me at first, but eventually I figured out it was because most of the music my friend's stepdad played was older, more dynamic music with clearer production.

I'm torn, because I like heavy metal, punk, and industrial music, all of which are "loud" genres, yet I feel like a plebian for listening to them over stuff that's more subtle and melodic. I only listen to artists like Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd once in a while, but when I do it's like an auditory treat. I dunno, it's almost like most of the time, I don't feel like I deserve to listen to anything other than loud, harsh music.

You make it sound like listening to heavy music is a punishment or something to be looked down upon. I personally think Led Zeppelin is the most overrated music to ever be recorded. I see little redeemable value in it and can't understand why they are so revered. Pink Floyd is different, I can respect their inspirations to the following generation of music even though I dislike their music myself.

What's funny is on that web site, I seen the same album on CD rated in the 6s and 7s while the vinyl version would be 11-14 sometimes. Can't understand why the same album would score better on vinyl than a CD. And this seems to be across the board with the one's I checked.

I'm not sure how much discerning each instrument clearly is possible in forms of music that are written with minimal breathing room. I, in more recent years, have gotten really into forms of heavy music that fill the majority of empty space. There isn't very much room for anything to breathe and that's the style of the music. Dynamic range may not be the most applicable way to evaluate the quality of those recordings.

I tend to, unless a song is trying to be slower or depressed, dislike too much space in the music. Maybe that's why I have the opinion I do. I mean I like quite a few things that do allow for space too, but seeing as how I only like music from 1989 on (Pretty Hate is the earliest recorded album I'd voluntarily listen to), and very limited genres, it is quite possible I simply adjusted to what I like and that's what sounds correct to me based on the small slice of what I like. I've never owned a vinyl record, and have heard one played maybe a dozen times. I've only heard classic rock that way and never an album I'd like. So maybe I just don't know enough to form any real opinion outside of what I like.

Hey by the way, if you really love NIN's PHM and like other industrial stuff I highly suggest these (more on the mellower side, but excellent albums, both of them):

The Black Queen:

https://theblackqueen.bandcamp.com/albu ... daydream-3

Crosses (actually the name is three crosses)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92dXztDGYdM

The first one is a side project by the singer of Dillenger Escape Plan (probably not a band you're familiar with). The second features Chino Moreno (of Deftones- probably more familiar)

Black Queen on a few songs sounds VERY early NIN. "That Death Cannot Touch" sounds like it was cut out of the album.

It's something a lot of audiophiles look down upon, and I can actually see why, being that a lot of my favorite albums have rather poor dynamic range scores. Again, bringing up NIN, their album "The Fragile" has excellent, intricate production... other than the fact that it's been loudness-war'd out the ass. Interestingly, this actually became more apparent to me when I listened to a FLAC rip of the album and watched the peak meters, as compared to when I listened to an MP3 version before. For some reason, MP3s often allow for volume levels that go beyond clipping range, and this is something I've gotten used to seeing on many albums. Take a clean FLAC or WAV rip of the same album however, and then you'll usually see a "brick wall" at 0dbfs or just before it. I dunno, maybe watching the peak meters and buying into the "dynamic range = sound quality" thing has tricked my brain into thinking that louder albums are inferior.

Another thing, while I do enjoy heavy music sometimes, other times it's just a grinding bore for my ears. I don't listen to a lot of modern death or black metal bands because they largely sound the same to me. Chalk it up to my near-clinical depression, but I dunno, I often feel like I don't deserve to enjoy nice things, and I also have an aversion to liking things that are "popular", even though I often enjoy them once I actually give them a chance.

Mastering for vinyl is NOT the same as mastering for CD, as vinyl records have physical limitations that prevent extremely loud masters from even being possible. Technically, CDs are capable of greater dynamic range, but they also don't have the physical limitations that prevent them from being extremely loud. Therefore, a CD master, made more for the mass market, will get a louder mix, while a vinyl master, made more for a niche collector/audiophile crowd will generally get a more conservative, and sometimes superior mix.

Thinking about it now, the "wall of sound" is kind of a defining characteristic of death metal, and I know for a fact that a lot of black metal intentionally tries to sound lo-fi and tinny. I can appreciate lo-fi sometimes, and done the right way, it can add a lot of character to a recording (i.e. Venom's "Welcome to Hell" album). I dunno, maybe I just don't like "walls of sound". I genuinely prefer music where I can pick up little subtle details and hear each of the instruments separate from one another.

I can see why you'd struggle with appreciating quieter albums, because I actually have that issue somewhat too. As much as I love PHM, it always annoyed me how I'd have to turn up my volume much higher for it than most of the other stuff I listened to, yet when I picked up the remastered edition, I was quite disappointed with it. I expected the same album with a bit of a volume bump, NOT something that had its dynamics destroyed in order to sound more like NIN's other albums. PHM is largely a dark synthpop album, not a noisy industrial album like The Downward Spiral or Broken. TDS and Broken are loud, but still quite excellently mastered, and it fits. It doesn't really fit for PHM though.

I'll definitely have to check out the songs you just linked. I know that coming from PHM, it helped me develop a taste for synthpop, new wave, post-punk, EBM, and just electronic music as a whole. I mean, I had enjoyed listening to 80s new wave as a kid, but in my tween/early teen years, I was somewhat of a heavy metal/classic rock evangelist, and PHM almost turned me into a total synth geek overnight. If you want my honest opinion, if you like PHM, I'd definitely recommend checking out early Depeche Mode, Skinny Puppy, and Ministry, as well as things like Joy Division/New Order and other post-punk/new wave artists.

Also, I'm somewhat familiar with Deftones, I love their first two albums, but I've never been huge on Dillinger Escape Plan. I once heard their cover of Aphex Twin's "Come to Daddy" and I didn't particularly care for it.

You will absolutely LOVE The Black Queen then based on your past tastes. I never could get down with synthpop/new wave etc. and all that as I have pretty narrow tastes (my wife LOVES all that stuff so I've been exposed to some). From her I am familiar with Depeche Mode, Joy Division and that's just not my thing.Just listen to the whole album from the beginning. It's only about 40 min.

Actually PHM is a clear step below Broken/TDS/The Fragile (anything from "With Teeth" on blows IMO) because I tend away from the older synth sounds like that. Though since I've dabbled in bands toeing the line of "Nintendo-core" (Arsonists Get all the Girls in particular). I do like some Ministry though. They were so ahead of their time. I do think they are a total band to skip around songs on and not whole albums though. They produced a lot of monotonous noise. And I love me some noise. Just not that kind.

Chino is probably my favorite vocalist. So I love just about all of his side projects. Crosses is the best in my opinion. Deftones more recent material is even better than their earlier stuff. Which is unusual for a band around for 20 years.

Had no idea that was even a cover. I do like some industrial metal (love me some Fear Factory) but I never got into stuff like Aphex Twin. Dillenger is an acquired taste which I only acquired somewhat recently. I remember them when they first, first came out being from NJ, and being that age and all. I didn't get it and it just sounded like jumbled noise. THey did get a lot more mature in their songwriting in anything from Miss Machine on. A lot more of a diverse creative band than I think many people realize because they can't get past the abrasiveness of the style. Which, I do get. But in it's own disjointed, spastic way it can be so catchy. But Black Queen is nothing like that anyways just sayin.

If you dislike metal you might like noise.

I just put the album on, and I like what I'm hearing so far. Given your tastes, I can see why synthpop is not your thing, and that's OK. I was actually a little surprised myself when I started getting into Depeche Mode, how much I enjoyed their stuff.

I like older synth sounds, but you're right, Broken/TDS/Fragile was definitely NIN's peak. I'm not big on the With Teeth/Year Zero/The Slip era, though there are a few songs I like, and I also kinda like Ghosts I-IV. Hesitation Marks though, that album was a pleasant surprise. It took me a couple of listens to get into, but overall I say it's a pretty good album, and "Satellite" is one of the best singles NIN's done in a long time. Skinny Puppy's "Weapon" and Front Line Assembly's "Echogenetic", both released the same year, were better though.

Now, with Ministry, they're interesting because they started out as a synthpop act, then they went industrial, then they started getting more metallic before shedding most of their electronic influence. Personally, I like their industrial period the best, followed by their synthpop period. "Land of Rape and Honey" and "Psalm 69" are my favorites by them, but I still have as of yet to really listen to "The Mind is a Terrible Thing to Taste". "Twitch" is kind of interesting too, and "With Sympathy" is a fun, albeit somewhat cheesy listen. I can definitely see why Uncle Al has disowned the latter two, but I think he's just afraid to admit his wide range of musical talent.

I really need to explore Deftones' newer material. AFAIK they came out with an album not too long ago, and it seemed pretty good from what I heard. I'm a little torn on Chino Moreno's vocal style though, he's very talented, and I do enjoy listening to him sometimes, but other times his voice doesn't fall nicely on my ears. I dunno.

I like me some Fear Factory, particularly "Demanufacture" and "Fear is the Mindkiller", which was a remix EP done by Front Line Assembly. Actually, the latter is my favorite Fear Factory record, but it's not really their EP so much as it's FLA's. Did I mention I like Front Line Assembly? Aphex Twin is awesome too, and Richard D. James is probably one of the greatest electronic musicians and composers EVER, IMO. He knows how to create great atmosphere, and his compositions have all sorts of cool little nuances.

I'm about halfway into Fever Daydream now... this might be another one of those albums I'll have to listen to a few times to really get into. It actually reminds me more of late NIN than 80s Depeche Mode. In fact, "Distanced" wouldn't sound out of place on Hesitation Marks. Like, I could almost swear that song had Trent Reznor on vocals. Maybe I'm just tired, it is like 2 am here. Ooh, "That Death Cannot Touch" is pretty DM-sounding... I like it.

Heh, you know, I never thought I would have sparked so much discussion with my initial loudness war comment. Normally, when I reply to threads, people don't know how to respond to me.

Yes, With Teeth was such a big disappointment. I think that whole genre of music peaked in the late 90's, and had fizzled out by 2005. It's not just NIN, other great bands like KMFDM and Skinny Puppy also started to decline around that time.

lol i see it all the time dude, anyone who doesn't listen to metal and claims to dislike it labels it "screamo" it's a conversation death sentence to me. i hear "i've never spent more than 30 seconds of my life listening to metal ever" when they call it screamo. i don't even know if screamo is a legitimate genre or not.

Same. Screamo IS a genre, but a relatively small one. More specifically, it applies to emotive hardcore bands (the true root of the term "emo", not pop punk bands like My Chemical Romance or Fall Out Boy) that use screamed vocals. Although admittedly, I often use the term as shorthand for post-hardcore/metalcore bands, since they're basically an offshoot of that movement.

Screamo isn't metal, and it has almost nothing to do with metal, if anything, it's more closely related to hardcore punk. Unfortunately, people who aren't aware of the differences between punk and metal, and assume it's all just noisy aggressive rock music, have appropriated the term "screamo" to describe any band that has unclean vocals or an aggressive sound.

Metalcore sucks for the most part, and so do tryhard mallcore bands like Disturbed, Avenged Sevenfold, and Five Finger Death Punch. Strangely enough, I actually like (early) KoRn, Slipknot, Tool, System of a Down, Deftones, and hell even Limp Bizkit. KoRn almost singlehandedly invented a new genre of rock music, alongside POD; Slipknot has introduced elements of extreme metal to the alternative metal scene; SoaD, Deftones, and Tool all proved that you could meld alternative metal with progressive rock elements; Limp Bizkit are actually quite tongue in cheek about their "angry white boy" rap metal sound, and they're just plain fun to listen to as a result, despite being reviled by people who don't "get" them.

ok, I am sorry, this was my bad. I made a couple errors in my original statement. when I said I hate ALL metal. I specifically hate screamo. my whole point of not liking metal was more of the statement, I can't stand negativity. when I was twelve, all I ever did was complain. too hot, too cold. so bored, to busy. hate school, don't wanna be home. outside sucks. everyone hates me; things like that. as I aged I realized something interesting. I have always loved music, throughout everything. I noticed prolong listening to certain music made me feel a certain way. screamo hurt my ears so I never really listened to it unless I was forced to. I used to enjoy metal bands such as black sabbath and led zeppelin and such. but the music changed how I viewed the world around me. the music I listened to effected how I felt, what I did. so I decided to test this theory. and still do to see if its prevalent every now and again. I take two songs I enjoy, one that is upbeat but sad and as more of a "f**k you" aesthetic to it. and another that was just mindlessly positive; not that it was all lollipops and rainbows, but no complaining. and the first one I would question everyone motives. assume the worst of people. and always avoid the populace as a whole. however, with the second song, my outlook changed to almost the exact opposite; I assumed the bets of people, gave the benefit of the doubt, and while still somewhat guarded; I was more willing to be among the populace. I have always been greatly effected by music, perhaps that is why it is important I understand my influences. whats that phrase again I use to hear all the time by my imaginary friend? they are watching us, and soon watching won't be enough.

metal isn't necessarily "complaining" or "negative" but you're right, it doesn't have that positive vibe to it. i don't know, some people get motivated by harsh vocals and fast guitars, others get motivated by a good beat. at the end of the day, music is purely subjective.

Interestingly, I actually hate overly positive music, because I find it to be annoying, and I hate having other people's happiness shoved in my face. I tend to prefer music that focuses on negative emotions like anger and suffering, since I can better relate to them.

Also, screamo is not metal. Sorry, it's just something that annoys me, when people call metal "screamo", because the two have nothing to do with one another.

Even so, if screamo and rock are different, I still find metal vocals of the small amount of songs I do hear to still be very abrasive to my own ears, hence the reason I seek out instrumental metal.

I like the instrumental of Redneck - Lamb of God, for instance, but not the vocal version.

I understand the aggression and anger is a part of the sound, but it's simply not to my taste.

Stuff like this is alright:

And yeah, overly-sad/emo music to me is just as bad as overly-positive/upbeat music.

What I'm really disliking in modern pop music is 'strong female' songs, where the lyrics are based on some female and her singing of her strength, independence, etc.

Very recent example, Rachel Platten - Fight song.

Don't mean to be sexist. Male ones are just as bad, but seem far more rarer to me.

Don’t really get into any black metal as I just can’t get into those vocals. I can’t say I’ve listened to a lot. But I know I don’t prefer that vocal style nor the overly satanic vibe of it. Death metal I don’t like too much of, I’m more of a –core person myself. I too hate things that are popular reflexively. I’ve been trying to undo that because over the years I’ve found I’ve missed out on some good stuff as a result. Still hard habit to break tho.




To me it depends on the style. I like both walls of sound and picking out the individual instruments and intricacies. There are certainly albums I would have liked to have heard recorded less as walls of sound that would have sounded better a bit clearer. But in a lot of heavier music, there isn’t a lot of space in the music to begin with. So regardless of how you record it, it’s going to sound like a wall of noise, because that’s what it is. A few very underrated albums that I liked that were recorded with a very distinguishable quality were Mudvayne’s LD50 and The End of All Things to Come. Since you also like some nu-metal/metalcore style stuff, I’d highly recommend these two albums, from which you’ve no doubt at least heard a song or two or three from 01-04.



It’s just annoying when some albums are much lower. I tend to like to make playlists and shuffle them, so I always have to adjust the volume.

PHM was a clear step below the other two for me. Downward is a timeless masterpiece. Broken- total wall of sound right there. Broken was so ahead of it’s time.



I’ve never been able to get into any post-Fragile NIN, and I’ve tried. Just not my thing. But you’re obviously a lot more into industrial/electronic based stuff than I am. I like keys/programming but typically only as flavor.
FLA is not my thing either. I listened to it because of the Rhys Fulber/FF tie but I just don’t like it.


While I do like a little Ministry, I can’t say I know the catalog. I know Land of Rape and Honey and Psalm 69 and that’s about it. There was a more recent one that I heard that I liked a few songs on Spotify but I can’t remember what they were.



Last album was Koi No Yokan, and it may have been their best. That and the one directly before it, Diamond Eyes, are both very, very good. Chino does have that whiney/whispery/moany thing going on, and I guess some people don’t prefer that. I prefer that to someone who sings way to properly and clearly like say, Maynard.

I think basically all of Fear Factory’s material is great. Except “Mechanize” which, while not bad, was too thrashy/metally to be a FF album for me. On Fear is the Mindkiller, they are remixed FF songs from Soul of a New Machine. Rhys Fulber has worked with FF for years (not sure if he still does, but I know he used to be their touring keyboard player- so he was almost in the band anyways) I’m not a big fan of remix albums usually. I liked Remanufacture much, much better.

Nope, the vocals on Distanced are so Trent it’s scary. I know Greg Puciato has a lot of Trent Reznor in both his clean vocals and his screaming with DEP. But that fking song is amazing.

Yeah I typically don’t get too many responses to things I say either. Maybe because I type too long. But heavy music is one of my few things, so I tend to go off a bit.

To me it depends on what you consider metalcore. My understanding is most bands with the screamed verses/clean choruses are considered metalcore. By that definition I like a lot of metalcore bands. What’s funny is, FF is the band that basically invented that vocal style yet aren’t metalcore. But the clean/harsh element is the template they created. Nothingface, Mudvayne, Vision of Disorder, even Iwrestledabearonce and Dillenger could be considered metalcore. All are good.
Slipknot’s first album is another classic. That s**t was f*****g sick (sic) when it came out. Vicious.
Eh, Limp Bizkit tho, no thanks. I’m not against the rap-metal thing at all. Candiria, my all time favorite band, incorporates rap-style vocals and all of the flows are rap style even if he’s growling them. I love that sort of flow over metal. There’s a band called Hacktivist that is a British guy rapping over Djent riffs. It’s not bad. I gotta say Emmure is a bit if a guilty pleasure of mine too. Even a little e-Town concrete.