Israel and Iran ‘A fork in the road’

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Even if most of them don't "march," active Christian Zionists vastly outnumber Jews. Please see my thread on Christian Zionism.

There is an annual Christian Zionist march held in Jerusalem itself by a large international group of Christian Zionists. (For specifics, please see my post here.)

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 09 Oct 2024, 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

The Reuters article didn't say they "supported the rape and murder of women and children," it said they supported the Hamas attack -- which was probably covered very differently in their own media from the way it was covered in Western media. Their own media coverage likely featured the military targets of the attack, as did some Hamas-sympathetic videos I've seen.


You wouldn't happen to remember which American YouTuber?

Anti-semitism is global (almost as widespread as anti-blackness) Jewish people have few friends and have had always to fight their own battles.

Oh they knew Mona. HAMAS made sure the livestream went viral, every Palestinian saw the rapes/murders. they saw young females being tortured and abused on camera. I don't want to re-post here, but there are hundreds of interviews with Gaza Palestinians showing women and children saying they hate jews and want to kill them. Even when they speak in Arabic, nothing is lost in translation, the language is clear. One little boy said when he sees Yahudi he wants to stab them. Another says he throws stones when he sees jews (the interviewer asked whether he means soldiers and the boy shook his head and said "no" "any").

I wanted to know why small children are so angry at Jewish people and not the IDF. It turns out the answer is easy. HAMAS control all the schools. From kinder all the way to highschool. For most kids this is their only education. the school curriculum is made up of HAMAS endorsed versions of Israel's history. the children are taught to chant songs calling for (you shouldn't be surprised) from the river to the sea, no jews in Palestine. they chant songs calling for death to jews (sound familiar? its the same chants you hear among expat Palestinians in London or NY protesting Israel). Even little girls are taught to hate jews. the poor kids have no hope, they are thoroughly brainwashed. No wonder there was universal celebration on Oct 8 2023 in Gaza.

the HAMAS controlled schools provide one important piece of propaganda which is a map of British Palestine which is fabricated and repeated by western intellectuals. the map shows British Palestine in 1947 as a nation or country with small numbers of Jewish settlements and Palestinians living in every inch of the land. then there is a version of this map in 2024 which shows the removal of Palestinians from their homeland across entire Palestine, it gives the erroneous impression of mass deportation of Palestinians in 1948. the reality is different. In 1947 there was no country called Palestine. Infact there never was one. Palestine has always been a territory. the percentage of this territory occupied by Palestinians was actually relatively small in relation to the territory and infact was the same small zones where Jews lived in 1947. Why? because in 1947 90% of the territory was desert where no humans could live. It was actually the jews who between 1948-1990 who converted desert land with their own manpower and resources into arable land. So why does HAMAS controlled schools cover up this important detail? its because it exaggerates the "genocide" claim. In reality the bulk of Palestinians are still living in the same settlements they were in in 1947. Another thing is the Palestinian population in the west bank, Gaza and across Israel has increased dramatically over the period of Jewish history. HAMAS use the word genocide when infact there is no evidence this has ever happened.

Finally marking Oct 7 anniversary Palestinian protestors in America and the UK were asked what they thought of the rape and murder of Jewish civilians. I noticed there's a curated response young Palestinian college students (many of whom are born overseas) repeat. "I refuse to answer your question because we must first ask you (the interviewer) to acknowledge the decades of abuse of Palestinian people". Very clever. It allows children to justify dehumanising Jewish people as some type of monster.

I really don't like where this is all heading. there is actually little hope for long term solutions other than some type of brokered short term ceasefire till the next terrorist attack. I am very sorry for the Palestinian people, they do not deserve what they have experienced but they must eventually take some responsibility for their own misconceptions instead of solely blaming Israel. But as long as Arab countries and Iran continue to fund terrorism and terrorist groups control their people's education I don't see that happening.

CD, if you were in their shoes you'd see Israelis the same way they do - bloodthirsty thieves who arbitrarily rape and murder their loved ones.

Most Israelis support Israel's policies towards the Palestinians or even would prefer even harsher policies. If those people aren't monsters than monsters don't exist.

No FE, I would try and be mature about this as the South Africans and Namibians were with their Dutch, German and British overlords (who were far worse than Israelis). Unfortunately Palestinians don't have a Nelson Mandela or an Archbishop Desmond tutu who sought reconciliation after a century of atrocities enabled by the west.

I would want my kids to focus on education and their health. Not AK47s.

I am not sure what percentage of Israelis support killing innocent civilians? Yes I have seen members of the IDF declare they don't care about what the world thinks about their invasion of Gaza. the Israeli government does use propaganda and it serves their purpose of making Israeli people convinced they have no choice in collateral damage when trying to rescue the hostages or (previously) create buffer zones around settlements.

One thing to note, Gaza has one of the largest concentration of children/women in the world, the size of families in Gaza is much larger than average for the rest of the region. this makes it impossible if HAMAS is firing rockets at Israel for the Israelis to nuetralise enemy fire without killing civilians. HAMAS are perfectly aware that every time Israel gets rid of one to their guns, they invariably take out 10-20 civilians in collateral deaths. that's why HAMAS make good use of civilians as both human shields and propaganda for launching future terrorist attacks.

As Mosab Hussain Youseff says, HAMAS don't just have Israel in their sites. they are creating another clone of ISIS who see a wider muslim brotherhood and pan islamic ambitions. In terms of strategy their ultimate target is the entire western world.

There was indeed a mention of one of the provocations in the very name that Hamas gave to their October 7 operation -- "Al Aqsa Flood" -- a clear reference to then-recent incidents on the Temple Mount. See the Wikipedia article 2023 Al-Aqsa clashes, which ends with:


(The Wikipedia article mentions that one Israeli security official "blamed the Jordan-appointed Jerusalem Waqf for not doing enough against Palestinian rioters." I'm inclined to agree. Hopefully, since then, the Jordanian government has beefed up its Muslim police presence on the Temple Mount. By international agreement, it is supposed to be Jordan's responsibility, not Israel's responsibility, to deal with any and all trouble in and around the Al Aqsa compound.)

Anyhow, another big source of tension was some then-recent evictions of Palestinians, including at least the following incidents:

- About 4,000 Palestinians displaced in the West Bank in 2023 (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs)
- UN Human Rights Office calls on Israeli authorities to halt imminent home demolitions and forced displacement of Palestinians in Al Bustan, occupied East Jerusalem, – OHCHR OPT – Press Release, 11 March 2023
- Israel/OPT: 500 Palestinians facing forcible eviction, displacement, and segregation, Amnesty International, July 28, 2023

Previous, lesser attacks by Hamas have likewise been precipitated by the combo of (1) big flurries of evictions and (2) incidents on the Temple Mount.

Alas, the evictions are still ongoing. See, for example:

- Courts Order Evicting 35 Palestinians From East Jerusalem Homes; Properties to Be Allocated to Israeli Right-wing Groups, Haaretz, Apr 16, 2024

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 10 Oct 2024, 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

Yes and these were wrong and Netanyahu needs to answer for this. But sorry, murder/rape of innocents isn't going to win any sane person over to the Palestinian cause.

In general I agree that nonviolent resistance is better.

However, in order for nonviolent resistance to accomplish anything at all, it needs to be able to attract lots of attention.

Among other things, it helps to have leaders with connections to powerful organizations of one kind or another, e.g. large mainstream religious organizations. The South African anti-Apartheid movement was very lucky to have someone like Desmond Tutu, who had the backing of the Anglican church hierarchy, and who eventually became an Anglican archbishop himself.

Unfortunately, when Palestinians have tried nonviolent resistance, it has usually gotten hardly any attention at all from anyone in the West. Most Western Christians have simply ignored Palestinian Christians and care even less about Muslims, paying no attention to Muslims at all except when they cause trouble.

It would help if more of us in the West would pay attention to -- and amplify the voices of -- those Palestinians who are protesting nonviolently.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 10 Oct 2024, 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

I believe there is a cultural/religious element as well in Palestine. there is much more intersectionality between islam and geopolitics involved in the Palestinian issue. It's not just an ethnic issue.

Are you sure your info about this is up-to-date?

Twenty years ago, the teaching of general hatred of Jews (as distinct from just hatred of Israeli policies) in schools was indeed a big problem, not only among Palestinians in Gaza but in the Arab world generally. But there has been quite a bit of progress in the past 20 years, in much of the Arab world. For some of the details, see Heralding The Dramatic Educational Changes In The Arab World, December 20, 2020, on the website of the American Jewish Committee.

The above article does not mention Gaza. However, even Hamas did tone down its rhetoric quite a bit over the years. Its original 1988 charter contained Hitler-level hatred of Jews as Jews. But their 2017 revised charter was greatly toned down, saying that their beef was not with Jews per se but only with Zionism.


The fact that Palestine has never been an independent country does not morally justify evicting the inhabitants.


The above is a common claim by Zionists, but it's a great exaggeration at best.

The majority of the land of Israel/Palestine is not and never was a desert, except during occasional droughts. (Mark Twain's visit, which Zionists love to cite, apparently occurred during one of those occasional droughts.)

The only part of Israel that actually was -- and still is -- a desert is the Negev/Naqab in the south. There are some kibbutzim there, to which the Zionist tale of "making the desert bloom" does apply. But those kibbutzim are only a very small fraction of the land.

Israel's agricultural heartland is now and has always been the Galilee, in the north, which normally has plenty of rain. There also has traditionally been some agriculture, including olive trees, on the hills of the West Bank -- to which traditional Palestinian farmers are now denied access, to a large degree, because their generations-old farms are now in "Area C."

But it's okay when Israelis do it?

See the Wikipedia article on Sexual and gender-based violence against Palestinians during the Israel–Hamas war, and see various sources referenced therein. Be sure to read the long section on "Sexual abuse prior to 7 October."

My brother in Christ, have you never heard of necklacing? South Africa wasn't as non-violent as you pretend.

!	Cornflake wrote:
	FYI: cyberdad is currently on a 3 month holiday from WP.