Asperger's and political activism...........

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What do you think of political activism?
I am regularly involved 14%  14%  [ 10 ]
I am regularly involved 14%  14%  [ 10 ]
I do something occasionally 16%  16%  [ 12 ]
I do something occasionally 16%  16%  [ 12 ]
I want to, but am too afraid 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
I want to, but am too afraid 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Not sure 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Not sure 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Not interested 12%  12%  [ 9 ]
Not interested 12%  12%  [ 9 ]
Activists are a public nuisance!! ! 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Activists are a public nuisance!! ! 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 74

Assassin
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14 Nov 2005, 4:05 pm

vetivert wrote:
serendipity, ascan. :D

i should have made myself clear - sorry. my question was "why is western culture superior to muslim culture?". i can see different, yes, but why superior?

in answer to your points:

women - too right, and that's one of the bugbears i have with the muslims who advocate such things. but it doesn't actually say this is the Koran, but is merely an interpretation by the extreme mullahs. and as for the bible's take on women...

ever heard of the spanish inquisition? or the way catholics, then protestants, then catholics again were treated in the UK in the sixteenth/seventeeth centuries, under mary and elizabeth?

jihad/holy war - the Crusades spring to mind...

several very small muslim countries sent aid to the US after katrina - i can't remember who, so i'll have to concede that point, if you need references.

how many fully democratic countries do i know? none.

now i am absolutely not saying that all muslims are fab, cos that's patently stupid. but then i refuse to believe that anyone is better than anyone else due to race, culture, religion, gender, etc., etc. NTs ain;t better than aspies, and vice versa. and that is my point.


well said. i felt the need to applaud that little speech :D

*applauds*

EDIT: After rereading this post i can see that it wood be quite eesy for some peeple to think i was beeng sarcastic. Pleese note: i was sincere


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ascan
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14 Nov 2005, 4:19 pm

ascan wrote:
Yes, religion and cultures are fluid, yes we can look back in history and see examples that contradict the statement in the last paragraph, but we are talking here and now [...] where would you rather live? Where would any person, properly availed of the facts, live?



Klytus
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14 Nov 2005, 4:28 pm

Some people are so scared of being seen as being discriminatory that they won't even discriminate between good and bad.
Do we really want to see more honour killings in countries like the UK? Honour killing is undoubtedly a feature of Islamic culture. As is arranged marriage for 12 year old girls. As is female genital mutilation. These practices belong in the Dark Ages.

I wasn't saying the Islamic world can't improve. Cultures evolve. The culture of modern Western Europe is undoubtedly superior to that of medieval Western Europe, where most people were illiterate and witches were burnt at the stake.
The thing is the Islamic world hasn't adapted to modernity very well. Even in the Arab world (especially in the Arab world!) with all their oil wealth, there is still no democracy, there are still high rates of illiteracy, and they still need foreign workers to do the vast majority of their work for them.

And look at the periphery of the Islamic world! Muslims are engaged in fighting and mass-murder almost everywhere: in Sudan, Nigeria, Palestine, Bali, the Philippines, Thailand, Somalia, etc. (Is this all America's fault?! Or are these people still bitter about the Crusades?!)

And by the way, the idea that the women-repressers in the Islamic world have somehow misinterpreted their religion is a myth:

Quote:
From http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes5.html#women

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”
Qur’an 33:59 “Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and all Muslim women to draw cloaks and veils all over their bodies (screening themselves completely except for one or two eyes to see the way). That will be better.”
Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”



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14 Nov 2005, 5:54 pm

Sure, I agree that Muslim fundamentalism is bad, but so is Christian fundamentalism. However Ascan and Klytus are only using extreme examples of people interpreting the Qu'ran literally.

There is nothing superior about Western capitalism over Eastern Islamic culture. If western leaders were afraid they would loose their power, they would do anything to prevent it. They would be prepared to send millions to their deaths in wars for oil. We are talking about a death toll far higher than a group of poxy Americans getting killed in a terrorist attack.

The very fact that we may feel superior may suggest that we are actually morally inferior to Muslims. I respect Muslims. At least they actually believe in something - a purpose for living, the worship of a higher being. Our leaders don't believe in anything except their own self-interest, and I don't call self-interest or capitalism a "culture".

Sure, I would rather live here than in an Islamic country, but that is because this is what I am used to. A Muslim would probably prefer their own country rather than a godless, principle-less Western culture.



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14 Nov 2005, 9:56 pm

GalileoAce wrote:
vetivert wrote:
several very small muslim countries sent aid to the US after katrina - i can't remember who, so i'll have to concede that point, if you need references.

how many fully democratic countries do i know? none.


Actually, Australia tried to send aide and manpower to assist, but America refused. We weren't even allowed to send in our consulants to search for our missing people. America wanted to do it all by themselves... :roll:

ascan wrote:
GalileoAce wrote:
I can't tolerate the opinions on this thread...
:: stops watching the thread ::

I guess that would make you intolerant, then. Not something becoming one with moderator after their name!


Are you trying to get a negative response from me? You seem to be just looking for an argument to start with anyone. And that's why I'm avoiding this topic. It's one thing to argue and discuss an issue. But it's another to simply argue for the sake arguing...

GA


Canada sent people over as well as supplies.
Qatar sent supplies over.


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ascan
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15 Nov 2005, 3:17 am

RobertN wrote:
... A Muslim would probably prefer their own country rather than a godless, principle-less Western culture.

Yeah, right. That's why Europe's swamped with Muslim immigrants, is it?

I'd guess that most human beings want to be free. Of course, freedom is somewhat subjective, and never, in any human society, absolute. Nonetheless, as far as possible, people want to be free to read what they want, say want they want, associate with whoever they want and to go wherever they want. Compare Western countries with Islamic countries, and what do you see? Modern societies are shaped by their religion, more noticeably by how that religion is currently interpreted and practised; therefore, you cannot separate Islam from the problems faced by those living in Islamic countries, nor Christianity from the relative freedom, wealth and prosperity we enjoy here.

As for the war you mentioned, if we do go to war, those who commission the action are open to the scrutiny of a free press. There is also the opportunity to remove them at election time. Granted, the system's far from perfect, but it's the best there is. Certainly better than Mad Mullah Mohammed issuing fatwas on a whim.



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15 Nov 2005, 9:21 am

Yeah, right. That's why Europe's swamped with Muslim immigrants fleeing from violence in their countries (caused by Western warmongerers), is it?

I'd guess that most human beings want to be free. Of course, freedom is somewhat subjective, and never, in any human society, absolute. Nonetheless, as far as possible, people want to be free to read what they want, say want they want, associate with whoever they want and to go wherever they want. And that is why we should uphold our civil liberties in the face of an autocratic Blair government that wants to lock people up without trial, and censor what we truly think about terrorism and the state of the world. Why is it that I am not allowed to say that terrorists are actually freedom fighters without the threat of being arrested? Why is it that an 82 year old man can't say that the War in Iraq was wrong without being violently kicked out of the Labour conference by security guards and arrested under the Terrorism Act upon his attempt to return to his seat as a Labour Party member?

Compare Western countries with Islamic countries, and what do you see? Modern societies are shaped by their religion, more noticeably by how that religion is currently interpreted and practised; therefore, you cannot separate Islam from the problems faced by those living in Islamic countries, nor Christianity from the absolute greed and hypocracy and indifference to the poor that we enjoy here.

As for the war you mentioned, if we do go to war, those who commission the action are open to the scrutiny of a corporate press that will portray everything in a censored right-wing format. There is also the opportunity to remove them at election time, that is assuming that the elections aren't rigged and financed by the corporate elite. Granted, the system's far from perfect, but it's the best there is, assuming that you are rich and have the money to influence political decisions. Certainly better than Mad Mullah Mohammed issuing fatwas on a whim, in the hope he may free his country from Western Imperial biggotry.



Klytus
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15 Nov 2005, 11:05 am

RobertN wrote:
Yeah, right. That's why Europe's swamped with Muslim immigrants fleeing from violence in their countries (caused by Western warmongerers), is it?


Western warmongers? The Islamic world is perfectly capable of starting its own wars without Western intervention, e.g., the Algerian civil war, the Sudanese civil war, the Lebanese civil war, Iraq's invasion of Kuwait and the Iran-Iraq war, not to mention the dumb wars the Arabs have waged and lost against Israel.
In fact, after coalition forces removed the Taliban from Afghanistan, thousands of Afghan refugees actually returned home.

RobertN wrote:
Why is it that I am not allowed to say that terrorists are actually freedom fighters without the threat of being arrested?


Incitement to terrorist mass-murder should be a crime. I'm sure you're quite safe praising terrorism in here, and, in practise, many people get away with it just about anywhere. Tom Paulin, in an interview with an Egyptian paper, once advocated the shooting on sight of Jewish settlers in the West Bank, and the BBC still employ him as a resident art critic.

RobertN wrote:
Why is it that an 82 year old man can't say that the War in Iraq was wrong without being violently kicked out of the Labour conference by security guards and arrested under the Terrorism Act upon his attempt to return to his seat as a Labour Party member?


That was pretty bad, I must admit. But at least the press were free to criticise the Labour party's actions.

RobertN wrote:
As for the war you mentioned, if we do go to war, those who commission the action are open to the scrutiny of a corporate press that will portray everything in a censored right-wing format.


The media in the UK, at least, is dominated by lefties: the BBC, the Guardian, The Independent, the New Statesman etc.



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16 Nov 2005, 5:00 pm

Klytus wrote:
I wasn't saying the Islamic world can't improve. Cultures evolve. The culture of modern Western Europe is undoubtedly superior to that of medieval Western Europe, where most people were illiterate and witches were burnt at the stake.
The thing is the Islamic world hasn't adapted to modernity very well. Even in the Arab world (especially in the Arab world!) with all their oil wealth, there is still no democracy, there are still high rates of illiteracy, and they still need foreign workers to do the vast majority of their work for them.


Islam hasnt been around for as long. Considering its only about 500 or so years old, its remarkably well adapted, actaully, I think. 500 years AD, MOST christians were eether extremists, or pretended to be. By contrast, extremism in modern Islam is the exception


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HarryofSheringham
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16 Nov 2005, 5:37 pm

Klytus the UK media is not dominated by lefties. Though the television media is largely dominated by lefties, the newspapers are totally dominated by the right wing press. I mean are you seriously deranegd enough to believe that the low circulation Independent wields major influence over UK politics? The Mail sells 6 times the copies of the Indy. Thats unhealthy influence.