why are people here against dating gurus (datasage, mystery)

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I dont get it, a lot of aspie guys do inapropriate things that put women off like, come on too strong too soon, speak crudely too soon, act desperate (as in - I dont want you, i just want a woman and you will do as well as anyone). Whats wrong with trouble shooting with a guru to get rid of these bad traits?

But people on here always say dating gurus are bad and men should be themselves. Well look around, being themselves without help is leaving them crappy and weird!

women are naive when they say things like "but i want a man to act desperate, i want him to fight for me". you want a creepy violent stalker who doesnt care about you as a person and just wants sex with anyone. Women really want a self sufficent independant guy who wont rely on them to fill the hole in their lives, but they wont admit it.

Won't admit it??? I've written countless posts imploring the men here to stop acting so needy and literally like they have a hole in their lives they need women to fill.

I'll let you off then!

Perhaps you should try the 'carrot' rather than the 'stick' and actively compliment and praise those Aspie guys who, even with the odds stacked against us, *have* managed to become self-sufficient and independant.

Well, sure I think the gurus are interesting and I have taken the opportunity to listen to what they're saying, if I don't have to pay for it. Otherwise, I really don't have a lot of time to seek these out. When I say I am going to get to work, it really is work, related to research/patents.

It's a major fumble if a guy doesn't take the guru's book off the table when he makes a dating video or brings a woman home, though. Women see that and then they raise the bar to compensate. All these things that can be learned by reading make it that much more difficult for the guys who don't do their reading.

This bar raising happens for just about any positive thing you say about yourself, especially educational attainment. If I say I have a Ph.D. too soon, the bar is raised, and if I don't meet the heightened expectations, it is counted against me. I'm pretty sophisticated for a high school graduate who went no further, though.

I admit I've been picky, but I need to figure out what I'm looking for to minimize having to end relationships and hurt people. This is why feelings need to be kept in check, so that the emotional investment doesn't rise too quickly to levels that become excessively hurtful if it is later discovered that the relationship won't work out.

The gurus generally know what they're talking about & their techniques do work. I recommend listening to them. However, only to give yourself a small push in the right direction.

There is the risk of becoming a social robot. A term coined by Neil Strauss to describe a guy who has completely reinvented himself around pick-up material. Who sacrifices personality, interests, friends, & much of thier former life to become a tail-getting machine. I'd have to say aspies run a high risk of this since many of our social lives are on the empty side to begin with, & pick-up material can fill that void very easily.

I do. Mainly in the form of quoting their hard-learned advice and giving it the big thumbs up because those who have been there and done that generally have good advice to share. Are you in those happy ranks? Congratulations! I know that Aspies have to climb over a lot more hurdles to make this work and I do admire those who have done it.

The thing being missed in all these threads is BALANCE. Is it totally inconceivable that woman want a guy who isn't completely one way or the other? Neither jerk nor pushover, neither obsessive nor totally aloof? Deciding that there's ONE thing all women want and that in order to ever get a girl, a man must be completely that, to the extreme, is exactly the problem.

I find all of that insincere game-playing and emotional manipulation more than a little disturbing. I prefer the WYSIWYG approach - i.e., 100% honesty. I can't work with, nor am I interested in, anything less.

I would date a guru, might depend, though, on what she is a guru for.
Although, my wife might be against me doing that.

Heehee!

I don't have a problem with dating gurus who find a common thread/issue and then show their students the way to develop uniquely in a way that incorporates those lessons.

What I do find problematic is gurus who try to turn everyone into carbon copies or alternative versions of themselves. These guys are usually really eccentric and over the top, and there's a reason why there's "one in every crowd" -- any more becomes unbearable!

Imagine if every comedian tried to be like Robin Williams, or every actor tried to be like Jack Nicolson or Brad Pitt. It's just too much personality for one room, too much "look at me," too much shtick. Not every guy should be doing parlor games and magic tricks to get girls -- for a lot of us, it isn't our style, and it isn't compatible with the types of women we like.

Gurus who stress thinking and analysis of long-term patterns and lifestyle changes over quick fixes and gimmicks rise higher on my list of people who are "doing it right"

There were simply a lot of things I didn't agree with in DataSage's guide. To me it's like a teenager's or early 20s guy outlook of the world. In other words, it's not appropriate for someone like me who's 30 and with more life experience and wisdom under his belt. I'd much like to see something more on the lines of what Maggiedoll suggested, emphasizing balance. It's only with wisdom that one can come to realize just how important balance is.

i think the more naive and creepy aspies need the gurus for trouble shooting. They cant carry on conversations or show an interest in the other persons life. You can learn these skills.

I don't see it as teaching men to be slimy and flattering conmen (though i know there are PUAs like that). I think the men on here can and have to improve themselves by learning from others. And i think the women are naive when they say just be yourself, dont change, youll click with someone. The creepy and scary ones do have to change! I know aspies who are angry adult virgins, and it has made them bitter and woman hating! Helping them work on their faults will help them form relationships and friendships with women better and help them develop.

basically to me a dating guru is someone who can teach an aspie to carry on a conversation with someone without boring them or creeping them out.

thats what they teach, how to calibate for the person your with, so you can communicate in their style. For instance some women like lots of loud and funny banter where some prefer calm, laid back chat. different senses of humor etc.

I don't think this is quite the balance Maggiedoll and I are referring to. You gave an example of a social skill, akin to icebreakers. This is fine as a tidbit of advice in general in learning how to get to know people, but it does very little towards maintaining a relationship once all the novelty has worn off. Also, I'd say that DataSage's guide is full of advice on how to pick up some super-NT women, who really aren't all that balanced themselves. Combine an unbalanced AS guy with an unbalanced NT girl in a relationship: do you really think that relationship is going to last?

The gurus do have some useful advice on general social skills... but they're more like "hey this worked for me, it'll work for you too!", kind of what billsmithglendale was alluding to. The thing is, a lot of AS guys here who are really struggling to get a girlfriend have a lot of underlying issues going on, that learning a social skill here and there from the gurus simply aren't going to fix. Seriously, if an AS guy has that much of a problem getting friends and relating to people at all, it's vastly more effective for him to fix the issues first, before even trying to get a girlfriend. If the guy has serious self-esteem and social issues, sure he can throw in a social skill here and there and actually manage to get his foot in the door, so to speak, but the odds are very very low that the guy is going to be able to handle the relationship. So the odds are low to start that he will make a good first impression, and on top of that the odds are even lower that that relationship will last, because he can't handle it. He should try to fix the issues first, then see if he still finds it so hard to get a girlfriend. It will become significantly less difficult.

That's why for long term solutions, I would wholeheartedly agree with billsmithglendale and suggest that AS folks make long-term changes in their own philosophies towards life and towards people. These long-term changes should enable you to become more balanced within yourself, and the resulting new philosophy and outlook towards life will attract other balanced people. You absolutely need balance for a long-term relationship. Young, inexperienced folks don't realize that, and it leads to the vast majority of relationship problems.