Im trying to figure out what to do next

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Hi,

Im 33. I only found out I had AS a couple of years ago. Its been a big relief because it explains why ive been at odds with everybody else my whole life.

Ive always had big problems with dating. When I was a teenager I was super shy, looked very young for my age and had a very low social awareness.
Girls wouldn't come near me. It was very sexually frustrating.
I went through a lot of anger and depression. At one stage I was looking around for a herb or drug that would just make my sexual appetite go away.

By the time I got to 22 I decided that I couldn't stand it anymore and started to go with prostitutes. It was a mixture of fantastic and
terrible experiences. Some where horrible money extracting machines while other were sexy university students who really enjoyed their work.

At least I learned allot about sex and girls. I always considered it a temporary fix rather than a long term solution.
The other problem was that it was too expensive to do as often as I would have liked.

In my mid twenties I worked in London for a couple of years and did a lot of traveling. I worked in IT and was very reclusive I only ever had a couple of very odd friends who had the same troubles as me. I finally lucked on some of the tours I went on met a couple of European girls and had two short relationships. They both didn't work out for complicated reasons but they were good while they lasted.

I returned to Australia and felt like I had hit the same brick wall that I had left behind. My overseas travels helped me to overcome a lot of my social awkwardness eye contact and self confidence issues. But Australian Girls still treated me like I was lower than dirt. I didn't care about popular culture or which team won at sport etc ...
So I just concentrated on my work and went back to the hookers.

By the time I got to 30 I started to feel like I really should try harder and do what ever I could do before I died.
So I tried Internet dating which was a total waste of time.
Then I tried speed dating and singles parties.
At first they were humiliating experiences nobody picked me and some of the women were very nasty towards me for being myself.
I was depressed for a long time but kept going back and trying again because I couldn't think of anything else.
An old NT friend of mine sent me a whole lot of books and dvds on pickup and seduction.
Theres a whole underground community of frustrated single men that are all sharing there secrets on how to pick up girls.

After that I realized where I was going wrong. Men focus on physical beauty but women mainly focus on a mans social value.
You never see an old man hobble out of a nursing home on his walking frame with two models because
hes funny and has a great personality. Yet men of high social value like celebrities, sports starts and billionaires all have sexy
girls begging for them no matter how old or ugly they are.

I tried to adjust my behavior and repress my personality. Basically fake high social value and tell the women what they wanted to hear.
After many frustrating and deeply depressing attempts I managed to date a few girls and get them into bed. But it was an act I couldn't keep up
and to be truthful just couldn't stand.
I wanted to be myself ....
Analyse, Calculate ... Tell it how it is. I dont F**Ken care which team won at sport or which concert is on this weekend.
but I knew as soon as I did that it was all over.

Soon after that I discovered what Aspergers syndrome was I went to a psychologist who tested me. She said thought I had it . A sort of informal diagnosis.
As least I felt relieved because it explained what had been going on all my life.

So now im at a bit of a loss as to what to do next.
I have a strong sex drive and I need to be with a woman.
I feel like I would have missed out on something relationship wise if I just keep going with hookers until I die.
Im not sure if I should just forget about NT girls all together. Theres not that many girls with AS compared to men. I think its 2 to 1.
Maybe I just need to find a really unusual NT woman but its like looking for needle in a haystack.

Lately Ive been Skypeing allot of AS men over the internet. Most dont have partners but theres a common theme with the ones that do.
They all end up dating foreigners. There might be something in that ?
Maybe a girl from a foreign culture doesn't see an AS mans Social Awkwardness because she doesn't understand the rules of that culture
properly herself. So she just focuses on him as a person ?

Maybe I should go and get a Russian Bride there are plenty of them on the internet ?

Any useful comments are welcome ....

Mark.

Hey Mark, welcome. You'll find a lot of guys here that have been diagnosed late, and end up with the same pressures you have(as you've no doubt discovered).

It's unfortunate that you got pulled into the manipulative side of pick-up. Being someone else wouldn't sit well with me either. However, since you now understand that your social value is the key determiner, it seems to me the best possible outcome would come from raising your social value for real. Sure, it takes a lot of time, and is hard to do, but it's something huge to be proud of, it can't be taken away, and it's all yours, and real.

How do you feel about that as an option? I'm sure there's some things you can do that'll give you another serious leg-up. From >the looks of it, you're actually doing pretty good in terms of desirable elements(assuming half of it isn't totally tailored). A little bit of refinement could potentially go a long ways if we figured out what parts were getting in the way most.

Hi

Thanks for the reply.
The problem is in my mind there is no social status I see all people as equal.
Say for example I won a dinner date with a famous rock star I probably wouldn't attend unless I though they had something useful to say about one of my areas of interest. An NT person on the other hand would jump at the change. They would take photos and get the star to sign things and then tell everybody they just had dinner with so and so. Girls would find them more attractive because of it.

I really hate playing that game. Im sure I could learn it and play it and fake it for a while but not in the long run. It makes me internally unhappy.

Raising my social value for real is a good suggestion but its easy said than done.
Im reasonably happy with my life at the moment apart from the woman part.

How would you suggest I raise my social value for real ?

Well, presumably you understand the underpinnings of social value, as measured by women...? Financial security, social influence, comfortable presence, novelty, health, looks, stuff like that. Addressing it one category at a time could probably yield some ideas, as one tactic.

But I'm curious, why are you uninterested in others who aren't relevant to your interests? How immutable is this disinterest? It sounds like you have friends, which seems contradictory to me. Does the prospect of having many friends seem attractive?

And you seem to indicate that you don't perceive social status. Is it that you don't perceive it, or don't care? You don't notice which people are dominant in a particular crowd, or it just does not seem to affect you (honestly)?

When i normally get around during the day im in my own little world.
In a crowded shopping mall fro example my mind will focus on going straight to get the items I came for. On the way my brain switches into analyse mode and starts replaying poker hands or an argument from a book I read the night before.
Im paying very little attention to the social scene unfolding around me. If im with somebody else they might say something like "WOW did you see the look that sexy woman gave that fat guy" and i'll snap out of my trans and admit that I missed it and I didn't even notice that the woman walked past us.

However if somebody said here sit on this bench and observe all the social behavior in the mall there will be a test later and if you get the questions right you win money.
I think I would probably observe at least 80% of what a normal NT person would.

I have a collection of odd friends and acquaintances but I only ever meet them one at a time. I dont operate in a big social group like an NT person would. They are all different ages and have totally different interests and probably wouldn't get along with each other.

I think the main thing that would make me boycott the rock star is that I feel that he thinks hes above me and of a higher social status. I get very angry with anybody who believes they are more important than me. I cant stand to be around people like that.
I was fired for a couple of jobs in my twenties for not submitting to bosses.

So if walk into a room a force my self to focus in the present and observe everything (which is a little bit stressful) I can usually tell who the most important person in the room is and have a general idea of whats going on.

Bottom line is I hate the social pyramid structure that everybody else operates in.
I understand how NT people see things but I dont feel there feelings.
In my mind I see a flat structure where everybody is of equal importance.

Oookay I think I can dig it.
And I totally relate to your lament, btw: I too am very >egalitarian.

So unless I'm misunderstanding, then you are absolutely capable of seeing the social structures & statuses around you, and you know and understand what other people are paying attention to. It's just that you have an ideological 'axe to grind' against such a structure.

However, due to this, the fact that you tend to pay attention to other things(per Aspergers) is somewhat arbitrary. You have the capacity to utilize those perspectives, and it's not un-surmountably difficult for you. But still difficult, yes.

Like it or not, you've been dumped within the dating game. And in this game, there are rules. Dislike 'em all you want, and ignore them all you want, but you know that doing either wont help you, and the latter will hinder you. But you know that - your PU experience probably illustrates that starkly. (Though, the rules are not nearly so rigid as a lot of PU would have you believe.)

You just gotta decide what's more important to you: Total ideological/philosophical integrity without bending or compromising even a little(...good luck in marriage...), or making some limited concessions for something that's very big, and deeply life-affecting.
Personally, I feel the middle ground would be best, but my bias is probably apparent.

That said, I want to posit that you do not need to change your core values, core identity, change who you are, or be anything you're not. You can be successful without running routines at women. Most of the time, it's just surface changes that make the big difference, or a perspective shift here or there. Or just a little bit of dialogue moderation, and a little bit of eye on the presentation. Particularly in your case, where you appear to have great raw material; It just needs some refining. I don't know what the specific points to focus on are; I know next to nothing about you. But I'm sure that with some help from others, you could look at things a little differently and figure some of it out, and make a big improvement.

Backing up to a prior post... Do you have any interest in making friends, expanding your social network, having platonic woman friends? Your thoughts on that seemed sorta mixed, to my eye.

Dating game suck, let's play hungry hungry hippos!

^ Flawless argument. You, sir, have won the internet.

I am interest in expanding my social circle but I can never really bring myself to do what it takes.

For example in Australia knowing all about who won at Rugby is very important when socializing with NTs. When people say did you see the game last night. If I say nah I dont follow any sport they view me as socially not worth connecting with. If I wanted to I could force my self to stay up to date with it and give the correct answers and act like I empathize with them but it makes me really angry inside.

What I really want to say is why does every body in Australia have to care about Rugby and cricket. If my sport was say ping pong why cant I bail them up and accuse being weird because they missed an important ping pong match Australia was in.

So if I practice and do what it takes to fit in I walk around with this guilt feeling inside like a spy who has infiltrated and enemy base and is constantly worried about being found out.

Does that make any sense ?

Quite a lot.
I think I basically understand - It seems that there are pre-requisites for social acceptability, and many of those pre-requisites do not reflect you at all. That kind of monkey dance would drain the life out of me, too.

However, I propose that pre-requisites like that one you made are an illusion. I believe there are rules, but I don't believe that having the same interests as the others (for instance) is one of them. Pretending you like something that you don't like is tiring and feels disingenuous.... So don't do it! My suggestion would be to reject and express your distaste for such things as much as you feel like.

But while you're doing so, give other hooks that allow people to continue to engage with you, and be interested in you. If you think Rugby is dumb, then lay out why you do. Focus on your statement tone(positive/negative), delivery, and ability to be interacted with. Re-frame the subject, away from the rugby match itself, and towards the curiosities, merits, and lame points of rugby.

If the conversation goes into a realm that's off-limits for you (like talking about how much you enjoy rugby) then try to change the realm of conversation into something that's accessible for you, and something you (and others) can actively participate in. As long as you're affable while doing it, and interesting(that's the hard part imo), then people will respect it/you. Even if the other guys look at you funny for not bein into rugby, if you're otherwise cool, then little details like that aren't gonna stick, wont matter.

But on the other hand, I'm not saying any of this is easy... It's still pretty difficult to have a controlling stake in the prevailing frame. It's tough, strenuous, tiring, and prone to mistakes(at first) but at least it does not require you to fake anything.

But that's just one example that certainly doesn't apply to other things on your mind, I'm guessing? My primary point is that while it may be true that it's a social 'necessity' to be somewhat outgoing and conversant, it's not a necessity to be like the others. As long as people can feel comfortable despite your differences, it's all good.

I don't like sports either. In my home there's lots of talk of basketball, baseball, & American football. Things I don't care about whatsoever. Sometimes I just leave the conversation and let those guys talk about what they want to talk about.

Other times, if I feel like I'm 'fading out of the scene,' I go and speak up. Maybe I'll say something like, "Man, there you guys go again with that baseball. I swear, the rules for that game are arbitrary. Pole-dancers are more impressive athletes than that! You know, some people are trying to get that into the Olympics...."

It's not the best example, but there, I've butted in and interrupted their convo, and belittled their interest, so I need to be really affable and light-hearted to compensate. If one shoots people down too forcefully, they'll feel offended, so it needs a light touch. But not only am I asserting myself into the convo, I'm also asserting myself as clearly different. And I'm giving a strange but evocative tangential conversation(Olympic pole-dancing, wtf?). At first, they might clown on me for not being into that, but as long as I just laugh it off, and persist in my view, so long as I remain unaffected by their jabs, then my own personal presence is strongly asserted, and will be respected within the scene.

It's nearly always possible to be respected even when you're different... You just need to pay due respect for the other rules of the social game, and assert your positive side.

Ditto to what Sound said. (Didn't want to build a text quote pyramid.) I want to add that it's important to make a distinction between the thing you don't like (such as football) and the people who do like it. Saying "I can't stand watching football" is fine and totally acceptable. Just make sure you don't add, "Only idiots like football". Dislike the thing outloud, but not the fans of the thing.

For example, I'm a middle aged American woman. Therefore it is assumed that I watch American Idol and Reality TV. I hate those things. And I say so. But I would never say, "who watches that tasteless crap? Must be only tasteless people" or anything else insulting to its fans. Dislike the thing outloud while making clear that it is simply not to your liking but you don't feel any disdain for the people who do like it.

And then, like Sound said, bring up something that you do enjoy. You may discover that somebody in the group has an interest in it too.

I hate to take up space quoting large blocks but whammo. This is exactly how I operate and feel. In fact we are nearly identical in philosophy and functionality, minus the prostitution thing. (Not judging there - I strongly considered it but could never afford a decent one.)
I think sensational76 has described my own world better than I have described it on WP in the past.

Janissy, those were good points, and well presented. You're right, and my own example did seem a bit aggressive, didn't it? But you really cut to the core of that kind of situation - As long as people don't feel dis-respected, belittled, invalidated, etc, then you can say anything.

The flip-side, though, is that if you want to keep up with the other guys, you can't accept being disrespected, belittled, or invalidated. This includes being phased out of a conversation, as that invalidates you. In an odd sense, this is an attack against you(even if the others are unaware of it). The masculine NT man's world is a constant sequence of tests and jabs and prodding and filtering and judging and asserting and dominating and respecting and blah blah blah. It's a royal pain in the butt, but for guys, it really does reflect a huge bulk of the social rules we have to live by if we want to be socially successful, either platonically, or romantically.

Personally, I mentally summarize it by keeping myself on-guard that I never bow my personality or presence out of habit or reflex, and only ever do it very consciously. It's perhaps a little militant, but it exists as a response from my past. I try to refine it, but either way, I'm better off now from it than I was without it. It's a work in progress.