Asperger's parents and NT children

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Hi--
I'm new here, and this forum seems to be mainly geared toward NT parents raising young kids on the spectrum... My experience is the opposite.

My mom (now 75) has Aspergers--undiagnosed--she would never in a million years reach out for help--she doesn't believe in psychiatry, self-help or really any kind of introspection. Both of my brothers are also on the spectrum. My dad had most of the traits, as well. So basically I was completely outnumbered growing up and socialized by a pretty antisocial bunch of people. They created a hermetic world where they were the "typical" ones and I was the oddball. My parents moved way out to the country so I was more or less left to my own devices until school started (my husband calls me the Wild Child) and my deepest interactions were with the absurd number of cats that we had.

When I was little, things were more or less okay with my parents (though they sucked at resolving the conflicts between me--the youngest--and my much older brothers, resulting in much sibling torment). They were really solid parents when it came to the logistical and intellectual stuff. Their obsessions (bird identification, topographical map reading, fossil hunting, mushrooms, The Lord of the Rings, etc.) were fun to get caught up in.

But as I got older, we started having serious issues. Their lack of affection and interest in my life alienated me. The misunderstandings between us multiplied My parents never asked about my friends, my feelings, or tried to figure out what I was really like as a person (I realize now that they probably weren't capable of that). No one said "I love you" or expressed deep feelings or had (what I would call) meaningful conversations. My mother started holding grudges against me for small infractions that are really typical of adolescent girls. She withdrew whatever affection she was able to show me when I was little and our relationship chilled permanently around the time I was 14.

I guess I'm interested in hearing from Asperger's parents about how they deal with their NT children and the challenges that they have. I have always been conscious of the fact that I annoyed my parents with my expectations and emotional behavior just as much as they annoyed me (my mom screamed at me during an argument once "I don't want to be deep--I don't want to talk about feelings!" A very foreign notion to me.).

I'm also wondering how I might be able to suggest to my mother that she look into asperger's syndrome or whether that is even a good idea at this point. And what I can do to try to improve my relationship with her without thrusting it into even more turmoil and conflict.

My father was probably an Aspie (he was a research Engineer who worked on early atomic research.) He coped by setting rigid rules. I suspect his four children drove him wild since we were an innately unruly bunch. I don't remember him ever showing me physical affection. I can't imagine any scenario where he would have been capable of trading feelings or understanding someone else's point of view. I doubt if your mother will be able to hear or grasp your need for affection any more than she could change her eye color. She may love you deeply but doesn't have the ability to express this the way you want it. Try to remember things she did that showed caring. My father came to my wedding even though my mother had threatened to leave him if he did. He not only came, he brought my sister and made sure she had something pretty to wear. That's not hugs of words of love but it was love none-the-less. (She did leave him, but her mother put up with her and my little brother for a couple of months and sent her back.) Jeanne Denault

I am the AS mother of a 9 y old boy (AS) and almost 2 y old girl ( we still don't know about her). If my daughter turns out to be NT she will probably find herself in a situation similar to the one you experienced, my partner is not NT, but i have no official diagnosis about him to be able to state what he is as fact. My daughter exhibits a few NT symptoms, she is a bit manipulative, she cries to get her way, even when she feels totally fine, which has led me to start more or less ignoring her cries unless i have seen anything hurtful happen to her with my own eyes, She hits her big brother sometimes, which he encourages by laughing and play fighting in return, which makes it harder for me to teach her not to hit, she is a sweet little girl, very bright too in my opinion, but a lot harder to understand than her brother was at her age. She has some Aspie traits too, like the not wanting to be touched thing, very prevalent with her, and i respect that.
So i don't know yet if i will have to raise an NT child, but to be honest the thought scares me a little. I'm not sure i will be able to remain patient with a child who lies, cheats, and manipulates people around her, or throws tantrum totally unrelated to her emotional state.
I have seen the NT children , my son used to go to school with them, and more than once i've felt sorry for other parents,and relieved that my son was not one of these children. The main attribute they seem to possess is meanness. I know it might seem unfair to you as an NT, but there is that little touch of evilness in NT children that i wouldn't like to see in my daughter,and if it were to appear, i will make it my business to curve it.

I've had a lot of experience with both AS and NT children. (Four children, eight grandchildren and 6 years as a cub scout den mother.) The average two year old, no matter whether he or she is AS or NT lies as a matter of course. I'm not sure they've figured out why they should stick to the truth if it doesn't benefit them. They are pure hedonists. You might have fewer tantrums from your daughter if you made a point of letting her know you won't be swayed by histrionics, but will listen to her if she calms down and is reasonable. My Asperger son never threw a tantrum--he just did pretty much what he wanted to do. He didn't lie, because he had no interest in my opinion so there wasn't much point. There are certain symptoms common to most people with autism. Most don't like being touched, but some do. The one trait they all seem to share is some degree of inability to grasp other people's thought processes. I think it's possible your daughter seems mean because she's two and has picked up some of the logic in the people around her but as most two year olds do, still thinks the world is centered on her. Good luck. She may turn into one of your favorite people.

mhh, my AS son never lied, he has started learning just last year, at 8, taking me as test subject, but i can always tell, and he laughs and says he will never succeed


My daughter is not mean, she's just a baby. I was projecting into the future and imagining what i would do if she was indeed NT and started displaying those behaviours. She runs no risk of "picking up on the logic of people around her" as you so nicely put it in an almost non insulting way, since we are all aspies in the house. No one lies or throws tantrums.
When you say aspies share the trait of being unable to grasp other people's thought processes, i think this is an NT assumption. Aspies are unable to grasp the thought processes of NTs. I understand how other aspies think , from the treatment of information, down to the reactions.

Sorry I misunderstood your post. I don't think NTs are necessarily good at accurately figuring out what other NTs or Aspies are thinking since everything is colored by their own perceptions. I would try not to worry that your daughter will necessarily be mean whether she's a NT or not. Just accept and try to enjoy whatever she is and hope she is healthy.

i think thats an offensive generalization of NT children. NT children are individuals just like autistics, they each have their own personality. they are not all little evil clones. that generalization is no more accurate than saying autistic children dont feel empathy.

my NT son is a breeze compared to my two asd kids. a BREEZE. i sometimes feel guilty that he gets the short end of the stick because his older and younger brothers require so much from us as parents. there are days they literally suck us dry of energy, and we cant refuse to give what they need so we give it until theres nothing left for the child who is waiting patiently for his turn. if it wasnt for him, his brothers wouldnt even get what they need as much, since the disparity between him and them is one large part of how we knew something was different with them, and pointed out areas where they need help the most.

there is often a mischievousness in NT children that i dont see in my asd kids. its a testing of boundaries and figuring out how the world works (not physical workings, but psychological and social). but its not done with evil intent. my asd kids are much more what-you-see-is-what-you-get.

i also think NT kids are more influenced by nurture over nature. parental and societal influence on them seems to have a greater impact, whereas asd kids seem to be more driven by internal forces. due to that, there are certain ways that NT kids are more susceptible or vulnerable than asd kids, as strange as that may seem.

I agree. My three NT kids were far easier to raise then one Aspie. And far more vulnerable to kindness. fairness and meanness. Aspies and NTs can have good and not good traits--they're human.

you disagreed with me, but then you pretty much rephrased what i had said...only you don't think of it as evil. My problem with this attitude is mainly that when i see it happen in other families, say, the child is lying to his mother to avoid being punished, and blames another child instead. The mother often pretends to believe him. I know some mothers will actually believe the lies their children say, if they were not present, and if they don't know their child well enough, some mothers on the other hand just pretend to believe the lie, to avoid having to confront the child i suppose, or because it happens so often, they don't know how to deal with it anymore? I don't know, but whenever a child lies around me, i can see it on his face. I can see if the mother is believing the lie or not. And i often get utterly outraged , by both of them. I have cut some good friends out of my life because their children were behaving in a really horrible way. Once, i confronted the mother, and told her i knew she didn't believe her child, so why did she let him get away with lying? she just pretended she didn't know what i meant. More lying, more pretending, more unhealthy interactions. I just don't want to have to deal with that sort of people who can't see right from wrong day after day, and be responsible for their actions, as you are when they are your children... i don't think i would be able to deal with it. Too complicated...

My NT child has never behaved in the appalling ways described above!

You are telling me that your NT child has never lied to avoid punishment.

I can't see much difference between AS children and NT children when it comes to lying. It's a basic survival pattern. As a small child, my AS child rarely lied. Not because he was kinder, or a better character, he just had such a poor grasp of social mores, he was too clueless to understand it's sometimes wiser and kinder to keep your thoughts to your self. By the time he was in his teens, he could lie with the best of them when he wanted to.

Yes, and i realise i have made this post about lying, when it is not the real issue, i just have a hard time putting my finger on it. My son is very bad at lying, but i am actually in the process of teaching him when he should lie, because it is not socially acceptable not to lie ever, and he gets into trouble far more than he can stand , especially since his motives for misbehaving are never "bad", as in trying to be hurtful on purpose. I think that might be my problem with the idea of raising an NT child, i never know how to react to meanness for the sake of it, just to get a kick out of people, for fun, i don't know the exact reason behind it, and it scares me. I don't even know how to describe the attitude exactly, but things like telling a school friend "every one is invited to my birthday party. but no, not you." Things like that, done on purpose, to hurt others. I know it passes with age, although i have seen it happen in NT adults also, but it is frowned upon (officially). Just, basically, having their "rights" and "wrongs" confused until it is explained to them. No sense of justice, fairness, compassion. Those things would scare me if i saw them in my child. I never had to explain what is right from what is wrong to my son, it just would never occur to him to want to hurt someone, and that makes him just as helpless as i am when confronted to bullies, because before you can react properly, you have to run through your mind all the possible motives they might have to be acting the way they are, not finding any valid reason for a behaviour makes it impossible to handle.

You have a good point. For what it's worth, I'm a NT who also finds it hard to deal with bullies or manipulative people. I just do my best to avoid them. I've finally realized that they may be suffering from an inferiority complex and trying to raise their position in their own minds, but probably equally often, some people, male and female, are just born mean. Good luck.

Ok, I think I see your real worry which isn't actually about lying at all. But about what you should do as a parent if you ever discover that your NT daughter has been deliberately hurtful to another child or acted in an intentionally bullying way. You have to deal with it constructively even if you don't understand it. That's what all the NT parents of AS kids are doing on this board: attempting to find ways to deal constructively with behaviours we are not wired to understand.

Here's how my parents dealt with it, and how many parents deal with it. The worst thing is to condone it (but you weren't going to do that). The second worst thing is to condemn the child who did it as a bad person (so don't use the word "evil"). The third worst thing is to ignore it. My ranking system is debatable but I hope posters don't get sidetracked debating it. I think we can agree those are all bad responses.

So what did my parents do that I in retrospect I so highly approve of? Reparations. It condemns the action without condemning the child. It also doesn't require that you understand the motivations behind the behaviour. If your daughter does something incomprehensibly mean to another child, require that she make reparations. My parents required me to think up what would be the best reparations to right the wrong I had done. Doing this requires the child to put herself in the others' shoes in order to figure out what would best right the wrong.

It is just a phase. I did mean things sometimes as a kid...and to my friend, even. My parents required me to think of how I could make it up to her. It mandated that I really think how she had been hurt so I could figure out how to fix it. I am not an evil person. This was just a phase. My parents did the right thing that put me on the right path of really thinking how my actions affect others, which is the lesson you want to impart.

So when this situation comes up, and it may, this is not a terrible thing. Just remember.....reparations. She has to right the wrong she has done and she has to figure out how to do this. And with that response, you get her to understand the repercussions her actions have on others.

Yes that is completely correct.