Anyone see the bullying segment on 20/20 last night?

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The first bullying victim featured was a kid with Asperger's who committed suicide. The school officials refused to take any responsibility for the abuse this poor kid suffered at the hands of the SS guards....excuse me...his peers. They also refused to allow a moment of silence at the school in memory of him. His parents have filed a lawsuit against the school, but i'm not sure if anything came of it or if anything will.


It seems to me that in spite of increased media attention and attention in general, the bullying problem in our schools is just getting worse. I have no way to verify this, but there sure has been alot of suicides lately which are being attributed to bullying.


Whether it is getting worse or not....I have to wonder where to place most of the blame for it. We all know that kids can be cruel and this has been true throughout human history.


Nonetheless.....kids can be and do alot of things most parents and society have never allowed them to get away en masse. Kids can drink poison, but few parents and other responsible adult authorities will allow them to of course.

So why is bullying as common as it is in American schools? Why is it tolerated to the degree that it is? Who or what can we ultimately blame for this phenomenon? Can we blame the parents who fail to teach their kids to respect and tolerate others who are different from them? Can we blame the school officials for ignoring the problem and in some cases enabling, or even, participating, in the bullying?


Can we blame the larger society which exhibits an obvious undercurrent of social darwinism that can be seen in everything from the predatory capitalism of American businessmen to the vulgar materialism and consumerism of the masses? Can we blame Madison ave. who encourages herd conformity, trends and the conception of "cool" (which is ever-changing) when it comes to everything from fashion to the type of music youth "should" be listening to?

Can we blame Hollywood, the music industry and pop culture in general? Cruelty and schadenfreude seem to help keep the ubiquitous "reality shows" going year after year. Can we blame America's love affair with physically rough competitive sports like football, basketball, pro-wrestling and hockey?

Can we blame the socially irresponsible athletes who many kids look up to as role models? Many of these people are little more than common criminal sociopaths themselves who abuse/rape women, take drugs/drink heavily, assault people and who reinforce the "macho" ideal and the sense of self-entitlement that comes along with it.

How about the artists in musical genres like hip-hop/rap and heavy metal? What sort of messages are these artists sending to the youth of America?


What about the more "conservative" forms of Judeo-Christianity in this country? Evangelical christianity has really become a major cultural force and you will find very little within these belief systems which is gay-friendly or feminist.


Do these belief systems contribute to the bullying of gay/lesbian/transgender kids and females?


Which one of these factors contribute most the to problem of bullying? All of the them? Some? None?


If I didn't know any better, i'd say there's something wrong with the gene pool or within the natural environment which is just producing a greater number of sadists and sociopaths.


Most importantly....what can and should be done to greatly reduce the number of bullying incidents in American schools?


Sometimes a society needs a "wake-up call" before any serious action is taken against a societal/national problem. 911 served as a wake-up call of sorts and now we can barely get on an airplane with anything more than the clothes on our backs because of it.

In the case of bullying....I think there have been several "wake-up calls" in the past 20 years or so. Columbine, Virginia Tech and many of the other school shootings over the past two decades should've been wake-up calls. The recent rash of suicides among bullying victims should serve as a wake-up call, but it doesn't seem like it will. Heck....even the increased awareness of Autism Spectrum Disorders and Homosexuality should've served as a wake-up call. After all, gay kids (or even those perceived to be gay) and those of us with ASD's are often prime targets for the student goons.


The topic of bullying seems to be in the media everyday over the past few years. Dr. Phil, Oprah and many of the shows like 20/20 have dealt with the subject several times in recent years. In spite of all this....I really think the bullying problem is as bad as it ever was or perhaps even worse. Is all the media attention counter-productive in this case?



Now some kids are WEARING NOOSES to school in mockery of a bullying victims who hung themselves. The school officials have apparently allowed them to get away with this unspeakably heartless and ghoulish behavior. How sadisitic does this society need to become until Americans realize we have a serious disconnect between how we're told we ought to treat one another and how we actually do?

I don't really agree with the use of physical violence (even in the mildest sense) as a form of punishment/deterrence. Rather, I think the bullies ought to face not only EXPULSION (since mere suspension seems to be looked upon as nothing more than a vacation), but "blacklisting" AND criminal charges too.


Maybe if these bullies faced some time in a juvenile corrections facility with kids far tougher than themselves, they would learn to control their abusive behaviors. Maybe if their parents faced a stiff fine, they'd make sure their kids stayed in line.

Also.....the names of the bullies AND their parents should be published in local newspapers and other media outlets. Make no mistake about it, these bullies are ABUSERS and they ruin lives just like sex offenders do. Therefore, they deserve no more quarter than we offer to sex offenders in America. The embarrassment and social ostracism their parents would face because of this would help too. Maybe then millions of American parents would stop viewing the bullying problem as nothing more than "boys will be boys".



The parents are never innocent in this respect as far as i'm concerned. THEY decided to bring children into the world and this entails the ultimate sacrifice. They need to be held accountable for everything their children do until they reach legal adulthood. If they can't handle this responsibility, then they're unfit parents any way you slice it.

Let them get their GED just like many bullied kids have decided to do rather than endure a few more years in the torture chambers which are passing themselves off as schools.


Community college isn't the worst option for anybody after all. More and more people are opting for community college these days considering the bad economy and the outrageous costs of 4-year private and public colleges/universities.

For anyone that missed it, the episode can be watched at:
20/20: Bullying
Very sad.

There should be no tolerance for bullying.
If the children do not follow a standard code of conduct, they should not be allowed to attend.
Then the parents are somewhat motivated to discipline their children.

In the work world, you can't expect to punch someones lights out repeatedly day after day without being removed from the place of work.

People will do whatever they can get away with.

Horus, you wrote many compelling points and good 20/20 is addressing the bullying issue that has become rampant. I am so deeply sorry (to tears) to know any Aspie has endured this......it's murder. As I understand, Ellen DeGeneres (sp?) gave a heartfelt talk about a boy (happened to be homosexual, but the "trigger" for the bullying does not really matter) that should make society take notice! Also, the tragic Phoebe Prince case.

Thank you for the link, Jaydog1212. You know, TallyMan (moderator) just posted about bullying on the Wrong Planet. I had suggested bullying could be a cause where the Wrong Planet could make a difference as ASD individuals are a target. I opined, to TallyMan, if perhaps Alex & Jack could make a video segment about AS and bullying to display on our homepage.

To the victim, a fellow Aspie, who lost his life to bullying: The Lab Pet expresses deepest sorrow and you'll never be forgotten. Best wishes to the family - - I am so sorry.

I am not able to watch the 20/20 link as I'm not in the U.S.A. Anyway, very recently Ellen Degeneres spoke, as I'd mentioned above. To note: I am heterosexual and therefore cannot know the issues faced by the gay/lesbian community. But, that's not the message. In this regard, the message is about bullying and for society to be aware and prevent this crisis. Therefore, Ellen's message (link below) is profound and must be heard (1 min 45 sec). Then we can remember our fellow Aspie who was killed by bulling:

http://ellen.warnerbros.com/2010/09/an_ ... g_0930.php


Personally, I've endured lifetimes of bullying by those who are, simply stated, bigots with a cruel streak. Bullying can end lives, but also deny opportunities that have been earned, destroy relationships, careers, and one's own sense of being. Bullying is contagious and without bounds. That's why I think we all need to listen and share the message, just like Horus and others have.

Edit: I think all right to reveal - Upon reading OP, coupled with other tragic bullying incidences, I just PM'd TallyMan, our moderator. Alex & Jack have been posting some great videos on the Wrong Planet homepage. Alex is a talented director with impact and maybe he can address the important issue of bullying as the Autistic/AS Community is a target, and make a difference.

2nd Edit: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt140545.html (Autistic torturers walk free)

Thank you for your responses and excellent points LabPet.



IMO....bullying is like any other form of abuse in the sense that it MURDERS the person that was. It robs a person of who they might've been and consequences of any sort of abuse are often horrific.

How many sex offenders were also abused when they were younger? I think the reliable stats say something like 75% or more. Would most of these people go on to abuse others in adulthood if they themselves had never been abused?


Probably not.


I think the same holds true for many victims of bullying who later became school shooters.


Sadly....it seems like several posters here are at least verbally abusive towards others and you would think those with AS/ASD's would know better. Some very ugly terms were just used to describe people with intellectual disabilities in another WP forum. I'm glad a moderator took note of this and admonished those who used these terms.

I am not surprised by your responses here LabPet. Even though I have not communicated with you much, I have always noticed and admired your extraordinary kindness towards other posters and people in general.


For one example.....I shall never forget the kindness you once exhibited towards a very frightened young poster who probably would be viewed as "low-functioning" by most standards. The thread in question was likely posted a year ago or more, but i'll never forget the compassion and humanity you displayed towards this young man.

I have posted this excerpt from Robert Ringer's excellent "The Cho Factor" series about school violence several times on WP.


I think it is appropriate to post it again in this thread.



In the interest of full disclosure, I DO NOT agree with most, if not all, of Mr. Ringer's political worldviews. In fact....Ringer and I are probably on diametric opposites of the political spectrum, at least when it comes economic and environmental issues. I consider myself a libertarian SOCIALIST and Ringer is a far-right libertarian.

Nonetheless...I am always willing to give credit where credit is due and I feel that Ringer is spot on here in regards to his thoughts about school violence.


It is refreshing to see that at least one NT who is not a mental health professional realizes the social vunerability of people with AS and NLD.

Those of us with AS/NLD and any neurological differences should NEVER isolate ourselves from others who are victims of school bullying and abuse in general though.

We should never remain silent when we know some other person is being bullied and abused for ANY reason. In this sense, I think we have common cause with gays, those with intellectual and/or physical disabilities, people who are overweight, etc.....


Anyway...here's the excerpt. I encourage all of you to read the rest of Ringer's "Cho-Factor series"and i'm including the link to his website where it can be found.


"Prime Targets
The School Bully



By Robert Ringer

Every school bully leaves a victim. Question: Is it really the bullied kid's responsibility to suffer quietly? Was that the obligation of the seventh-grade victim described below?



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I was in the 7th grade in a public high school. We are in gym class, and several 7th grade classes take gym together. We finish our gym class and are told to take a shower before the next class. I'm one of the smallest guys in the class, but this day I wouldn't become the victim, because they choose someone else. Several guys grab this other person, about my size, and place him in the wire cage they keep sports equipment in. He is naked, of course, heading to take his shower. They then proceed to urinate on him in front of the rest of the guys. You don't even want to know about the laughter. I can't even imagine the emotional scars that he deals with today. I consider myself lucky that day, but that poor bastard … if I ever heard he picked up a gun and killed those S.O.B.s, I would cheer him on. - E.A.
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It's hard to imagine that the incident E.A. describes didn't forever damage the victim's self-esteem and self-confidence. Perhaps he died at a young age ... or maybe he's just lived a life of misery all these years.


Of course, he might have been one of those kids who had the tools to rise above such humiliation, find a way to repair his bruised and battered ego, and go on to lead a successful, happy adult life. Unlikely … but possible, I guess.

Frankly, however, I'm not interested in whether or not he had the inner strength to get beyond such a sadistic bullying incident. Regardless of his coping "tools," I believe all the school bullies who participated in that savage attack not only should have been expelled from school, but should have had criminal charges filed against them. Instead, they almost certainly continued on their merry way as part of the "in crowd" throughout their school years - and, to this day, probably still laugh about the incident.

Now, here's the "X" factor that people are missing when they say it's the duty of a bullied kid to tough it out and succeed in spite of all the taunting, teasing, and degradation he experiences: What if the victim simply is not equipped to handle the abuse dished out by the student criminals who target him?

What if the child has a condition that makes it all but impossible to fend for himself? What if he has Asperger's Syndrome (mild autism) or a "nonverbal learning disorder" (NLD)? Or what if he simply has severe emotional problems, as a result of genetics, an abusive home environment, or any one of a number of other causes?

Now hear this: These kids are the prime targets of the student goons (and malevolent teachers) who thrive on subjecting others to pain. Yet, in my considerable experience, no one - including, and especially, so-called educators - seems to give such handicaps a thought.

But the parents of millions of such children - repeat, millions - see the deteriorating results each and every day when their children come home from the torture chamber euphemistically referred to as "school" … depressed, angry, withdrawn, and worse. It is a very sad, very frustrating, and very ugly way of life.

In a perfect world, every child who is bullied would have what it takes to rise above the physical and verbal abuse, humiliation, and loneliness to which they are subjected. But, as one reader put it:



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I often see this attitude of, 'Well, I did it … why can't others?' However, we're not all created the same, and the circumstances of our lives are not the same. I admire people who do overcome difficult obstacles, but often what's missing is a lack of compassion or empathy for those who can't. - K.A.
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The coup de grace is that if the bullied child ever gets up the nerve to tell on his tormentor, two things are almost sure to happen.

First, the teacher or administrator handling the matter puts the bully on an even footing with his victim. The attitude is: "Now, boys, how can we work this out?" Which, of course, is preposterous and only emboldens the school bully. In every case of bullying in the history of Planet Earth, everyone knows who the bully is and who the victim is. It's never a matter of two relatively equal kids needing to "work out their differences."

The second thing that happens is that the bullied child will immediately be labeled a "snitch" - and snitching, in all schools, is taboo. There is an unwritten rule that you don't snitch - no matter what someone does to you. If you get urinated on, so be it. But telling on the urinators makes you a scoundrel.

The implication is that it is your moral obligation to keep quiet about it when someone batters and humiliates you. If you snitch, there is no turning back. It makes you a permanent outcast with virtually the entire student body - even though you are the victim.

Unfortunately, school officials are too stupid, lazy, and apathetic to do anything about the nonstop sadistic bullying of students who, for one reason or another, are not equipped to defend themselves - and, in many cases, not equipped to get their lives on track as they grow into adulthood. Little do they realize that they may be helping to create the next Cho, and that he may be paying them a visit in the near future to set some things straight that he's pretty angry about.

Hopeless situation? Yes, it is - if schools are allowed to continue with business as usual. Drastic situations call for drastic solutions. In Installment VIII, I'll offer some extreme measures that I think need to be taken if schools are to lessen their chances of producing more Chos - and, even more important, producing more millions of scarred children who are left to quietly suffer".


http://www.robertringer.com/bullying.html

all part of human nature, thats just the reality of it all.

Its all so very sad for these kids and their families. Even the bullies I feel sad for. What miserable lives they will have, having become teenage killers.

Why the f**k do people have to ascribe to group dominance? Its like a pack of dogs cocking their leg on each other.

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it.

I wonder if part of the reason why some people in authority don't take bullying seriously us because they were/are bullies? Punishing bullies would be admitting to themselves that they did something wrong.

Maybe so.... but humankind has spent at least five thousand years altering "nature" in everyway possible.


Perhaps it's time we consider altering "human nature" a bit.


I'm not really convinced there is some fixed, monolithic and immutable quality we can define as "human nature" in the first place. I think of alot of our "nature" depends upon the environment we are exposed to. It partially depends on the predominant values in a given society as well.

The predominant values in American society aren't exactly warm and fuzzy IMO.


At any rate.....nature in it's purest state is rarely a pleasant thing. The smallpox virus is pretty natural and we've done a pretty good job of eradicating it from the planet.


Thus....I don't think shrugging our shoulders and chalking up all anti-social behavior as just an inevitable part of "human nature" is really something we ought to be satisfied with.

I saw it. It was horrible. It made they way I was treated back in school look like a fun-filled frolic
through a sunny meadow filled with cute little Disney animals. People are getting more and more cruel and evil every day, and no one is truly happy unless they're making someone else's miserable. I know it's part of being human and there's that can be done about it. The world is getting worse every day and soon we won't have a world left. Will someone will stop it so I can get off?

One of the few things that makes me glad I'm not a kid anymore is middle school. And I'm so thankful the internet wasn't around back then. Kids used to scream at me in the hallway that I had AIDS all the time and that I did drugs. I know today they would have at least one website dedicated just to hating me.

Your parents can't protect you, and the school board is run by idiots. What else is there to end your suffering but suicide?

Yet, the evidence throughout human history has pointed towards humans in general as being cruel and sadistic and just in general a pain in the ass. So far knowing it has led me to guess the probability of events in my life as well as geopolitical ones fairly well.

And I agree that we shouldnt accept it, Im just saying that its base human instinct. And sadly I dont ever see human beings moving beyond that. Yes as I said before in a post long ago, I do in tend to see the social darwinism at play, in fact it can easily me extended to a geopolitical/global economic viewpoint if you really think about it.


Also if I had to put my worldviews on a scale from idealist <-----> Cynic, I broke it entirely, because I just shot right past cynicism back when I was 12/13. Not that I am negative just for the sake of being negative or from depression. Its just I honestly see no hope for humanity. Oh well, wouldn't stop me from trying to profit if a world war breaks out again.

I'd really like to watch this but I am not in the US either. Is there a torrent, or on Youtube or something?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao1jaBpTjgM[/youtube]
Well I tried to link.