Emigration

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Hello,

I actually joined Wrong Planet a while ago but haven't been very active as a poster but I really felt like posting something today. I wanted to ask the community a question about their experiences or opinions on a particular topic; namely emigration. Note this will be a long story, but I want to avoid having to post subsequent explanatory messages about any detail I leave out as much as possible.

My story is that I am 26, unemployed and living in the recently bankrupted country of Ireland. Long story short I have been unemployed for just under 2.5 years and I graduated from college with a research Masters in biological science just under a year ago (although I actually finished in college in real terms in early March 2009).
Two and a half years seems like a long time I know, but to me it doesn't seem like that long, as I was employed in my first real job working for 8 months as a researcher for my college supervisor covering for a woman on maternity leave up until June 2008 then for about 5 months I finished writing my thesis before I applied for social welfare, so that first 5 months I still felt like a student writing his thesis, which I guess I was. Then I spent another two months waiting for my supervisor to return corrections of my thesis to me and then almost another two months finally completing the thesis. So even though all this time adds up to nine months, all this time I still felt like a student and so I didn't really feel "unemployed".

But then I started what I would term "real" unemployment and so spent seven months looking fruitlessly for work, then I found out about a government sponsored scheme to provide recent college graduates with unpaid relevant work experience for six months and you would still receive your social welfare payment. I thought this would be a great idea as I thought maybe by the end of the work placement the economy would have picked up and I could get a real job.
Unfortunately this work placement in a laboratory at a pharmaceutical company turned out to be probably the worst thing I had ever done because up to this point I had only self-diagnosed myself with AS using Simon Baron Cohen's self-diagnosis questionnaire in one of his published scientific papers (I had free access to scientific papers as a student through my University) and although I was aware of my limitations (school/college were torture as I was regularly bullied and I come from a large working class family none of whom have AS and so are not particularly understanding of my eccentricities and my sisters often make fun of me for not being more outgoing, not having a girlfriend and my cold lack of empathy), I thought that once I was free of the gauntlet that is educational institutions that life would be easier.

How wrong I was.

The people I worked with found my disinterest in their lives and feelings offensive and thought that I was arrogant and condescending and not willing to be part of their team and that this was because I thought I was "better" than them for having gone to University and having a Masters whereas they did not even have degrees. In reality I thought I was being perfectly courteous and was doing my best to fit in with them and be involved with their jokes etc. and of course did not think that I was better than them, but rather was just displaying typical AS behaviour.
Half way through my work experience during an evaluation my supervisor confronted me with all this and told me that if I didn't want to finish out my work placement I could quit then. I told her that any flaws I had were due to having AS, which was very hard for me as I don't like telling people I have AS. She then implied that I was lying and was simply a truculent, arrogant, offensive young man but was willing to let me stay on if I wished so that I could try and improve.
I did stay on as I wanted to prove her wrong and didn't want to tell my parents that I had been fired from a job where I wasn't even being paid. This also led to me finally having myself officially diagnosed with AS so that I knew for certain.

So I finished the work experience, as terrible an experience as it continued to be seeing as most of my co-workers openly displayed dislike for me, because I thought maybe then with some experience on my CV, I could get work.
So now I have been "real" unemployed for another seven months and the possibility of work in my home-country has become increasingly unlikely as if you haven't read it in the papers or online or seen it on TV, Ireland has gone bankrupt and has had to be bailed out by the IMF/ECB/EU and so there will realistically be no jobs for any young inexperienced person for probably ten years - AS or no AS.

So now what few friends I made as a post-graduate (I never really had any real friends as an undergraduate or younger in school) are happily, optimistically planning to move abroad over the next few months and I feel like if I stay in Ireland I will never get a job and will have to stay living with my parents, dependent on social welfare and closing in on 30 years old.

If I was to move abroad (probably either to England or Canada), I would probably have to do so alone as I have no family abroad, none of my other family members need to emigrate and my friends that are moving abroad will either be doing so as couples with their girlfriend/boyfriend or will be going to other members of their family who have already moved abroad and I feel like it would be highly inappropriate for me to ask to go with them. And of course there is the big issue of being someone with AS:
after 26 years I can barely cope outside of home on my own for very long and find it hard to imagine that the trends of my life (isolation, depression, exclusion etc.) would not simply be repeated again just in a different country.

If I stay in Ireland I will most likely not be able to find work for a long time, what few friends I have will go abroad and not return for years or ever and I will go nowhere fast. However at home at least I will be safe, comfortable and mentally stable and able to pursue my interests (writing, illustration, art) and the social welfare payment I receive is quite generous due to my parents being quite old (€196=US$269 per week) and likely to only be decreased by €10 or so this year and less next year, more than enough for someone with AS to comfortably live on.

So what I want are the opinions of members of this site and any experiences they may have had with emigration or moving a great distance from home and basically do you think I should just stay put or what? Please be as honest and frank as possible.

Thanks.

I used to live in Australia for 1½ years because my dad was stationed there to get a new branch of the company he worked at up and running. At the time I was about 11-12 years old, It changed me radically, but not without sacrfices...

Moving to another country is a big jump as you loose much of the contact with family and friends, which is the biggest obstacle for many. Communcation with family and friends are mainly hindered by time zones and expensive calls, but luckily the Internet fixes some of the issues (expensive calls mainly).

The other obstacle is the loads of paperwork it takes. You need to prove that you have no contagious diseases, can work in the country and consider if they honor your degree, among other things. You must also realize that some countries are simply hopeless to get into (Australia, for instance, unless they need you or you live in a town out where the crows start bringing lunchboxes) or the paperwork may take a very long time to get processed (like in the US, it takes at least three years to get a greencard there). The best option is to go for a country in the EU, it cuts down on most of the paperwork, but may have you take language and history classes (We do this in Denmark, at least with non-EU foreigners).

Do your research well, have patience and you'll do fine

I don't mean to be cynical and I appreciate your advice, but don't you think your advice largely ignores the reality of someone with AS? Your advice would be perfect for someone who was an everyday person, but for someone with AS surely you appreciate that paperwork is the least of our worries?

Also when I talk about emigration, I don't necessarily mean attempting to gain citizenship, up to two year visas are relatively easy to get for Canada, Australia etc. and as an EU citizen, any Irish person has the right to go and live anywhere else in the EU without significant paperwork.

Hi RobinGoodfellow--
I'm not AS (my situation is just the opposite--a lone neurotypical in a family of AS people), but I can really empathize with your situation. I live in Spain (I'm originally from the US) and the prospects for university graduates are just as desperate, with a colossal brain drain taking place as people head to greener pastures in the EU. It's very hard to know how long the problem will last. I think it will really depend on the sector where you are looking for work and many factors that are entirely unforeseeable at the moment. Also, even in the midst of economic doom and gloom little opportunities arise.

The way neurotypical folks deal with situations like this is to reach out and network and try to find out through word of mouth where the opportunities are and elicit some help through social connections to get a foot in the door. I know that must be agonizingly hard for most AS folks (I'm a serious introvert and it's hell for me, too). If you have any allies in your field who would help out, try to use them. Perhaps you could start over and do another internship--and not be afraid to let people know that you are AS and to cut you some slack in the small talk department. Are there any aspies here (or elsewhere) in your field that might be able to give you advice, help, etc.?

I think moving abroad (or next door in the case of GB) without a solid job lined up could be risky. Can you set up some interviews in England and do a reconnaissance mission first? Or keep in touch with those who move away and try to feel out what the opportunities are? If you get off the dole will it be hard to get back on if you come back? Are you excited at all by the prospect of living in a different country and traveling and being a stranger in a strange land?

Emigration is a tough gig for an Aspie. I am on my second country now. UK citizen moved to UAE and now Hong Kong. In each case it was work related and I had jobs lined up before my move. I was lucky enough to take my wife and kids with me but I had start out in the UAE on my own for a while.

It is very much a gamble. I, of course, had to leave all of my friends (twice). In the case of the UAE, I moved to a post where there was much recruitment of expats. We were all in the same boat so it was less difficult to make new friends. I wouldn't advise a move to the UAE though, if you have a choice.

I did try to go back to the UK earlier this year but the job situation was dire. I am lucky enough to have rare skills (probably helped by my AS) and I can find well paying work around the world (except, it appears, in my home country). I'm loving Hong Kong but I still miss my friends.

That's just it, with so little experience I have not had the time to build up any kind of network of contacts, which would be difficult for someone with AS anyway. As for another internship, they are unpaid and it is very hard to work for nothing, towards the end of the one I did an undergraduate came in on summer work and was being paid minimum wage and so was earning more than I was getting on social welfare but was doing less as he had not even finished college yet! As for disclosing that I have AS to any prospective employers, my experience is that except for the most understanding, most people don't see why this is their problem and I should just go elsewhere.

Yes it would be difficult to get your social welfare back if you leave the dole queue. I have put out some feelers to recruitment agencies in England about what my employability might be there, but the idea of going to England on my own possibly for years or, if I did find any success and Ireland never regains its footing, even for ever; is overwhelming and makes me feel physically sick. I can sort of see the potential fun of travelling to other countries, but that is best case scenario and more like a fantasy. Realistically I know the best I could hope for is to grind away at some 9 to 5 job and resume my typically isolated life in the evenings and at least be thankful that I'm not and an unemployed nothing back home.

I guess at least if you are from the US, you can go back home? Spain is expected to accept a bailout like Ireland pretty soon too, the unemployment there is even higher than here.

That's what I've been trying to discern from the internet, what the job opportunities for a young science graduate with little experience would be. I do fear that I would go and there would be as little work for someone in my situation as there is at home. In Ireland, if you have significant experience, the job market isn't actually that bad, but the unemployment level amongst young people (i.e the inexperienced) is more than twice the general level (the general level is almost 14% for young people it is about 40%).

If you don't mind me asking BassMan, could you give me any more specifics on your experience of the current job market in Britain?

I have very specialist skills gained through the attention to detail and deep interest that are typical of AS. There are not many people that do what I do. The world market for what I do is not very large, but where I am needed, I can name my own price. I can't say more, in fear of being googled. I am lucky enough to have some recognition in my field for fairness and integrity (probably due to my AS). The UK job market is very stagnant at the moment. There are a few large projects on the go but these are not, what I would call, innovative and are all subject to uncertainty because of the lack of firm government commitment.

The difficulty that you have is, as you say, experience. When I was starting my career, as a fresh graduate, in the early 80s, things were about as bad as they are in the UK now. After I graduated, I was lucky enough to find work on occasion but I had to take several awful, low paid, jobs until I found one that let me get a foothold on a career. After many failed attempts, I surprised myself when I got it.

I didn't know I had AS until recently. I always found interviews very difficult. There are techniques that you can learn to give you a helping hand. My advice is; don't give up, find your role and get as many applications out as you can. Take the first opportunity that comes along, even if it is not ideal. You will be in a much stronger position in searching for the next job if you are already in work. Once you find a post to support your career, things get much easier.

As a graduate, you have many more opportunities than those without a qualification. Good luck

What I can tell you is this: if you are foreign and disabled in Finland, you will not get much in the way of benefits (to keep you going until you learn the language and get a job). They don't want us. Regardless of our qualifications. They just don't want us.

Here, you'd be expected to live on 410€/mth. You wouldn't even be allowed the lowest rate of disability allowance, which would be another 150€/mth. They'd find a way to interpret the rules so that you couldn't get it. And, on appeal to the regional administrative court, you'd lose the appeal because the judges go in with the attitude that the decision was an administrative one and therefore was based on sound practice. Yep - we call it prejudice. The Finnish call it 'impartiality'.

Suggests a lot of not very nice things about the Finnish, doesn't it?