montessori and other 'special' schools

Page 1 of 1 [ 15 posts ] 

AnotherOne
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2009
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 454

19 Dec 2010, 9:06 am

Our problem in short: we had a very bad experience with school services and like to help our 6 yo our own way. despite his good academics and mostly good behavior, his regular school constantly forces special services for him. honestly, i have had enough and we are looking into private schools.
he is formal in his learning i.e. straightforward style meaning we can just talk and practice from practice sheets. this is a reason while we went with a "standard" school. at this point we are looking into all other options and i am interested if anyone has an experience with montessory school?



matrixluver
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 19 Oct 2008
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 163

19 Dec 2010, 11:14 am

I can relate to is that pulling a child with Autism out to homeschool leads to further regression with social skills. What type of services is your school "forcing?" The opposite usually happens- parents who have children with Autism that excel academically can't get services that the child needs in the areas of social skills and conversation skills. Having good social skills is far more complicated than having polite manners. Teens and adults with ASDs who aren't taught how the NT world works carry a large target for bullies on their backs. The rate of depression for adults and teens with ASDs far surpasses that of the general population.
Also, regarding "practice sheets," individuals with ASDs excel at memorization and learning from rules. Where problems exist would be the area of application of skills to multiple and novel settings. I'm sure there are some jobs out there where use of rote memory is needed, but most jobs require problem solving as well.



PunkyKat
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 May 2008
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,492
Location: Kalahari Desert

19 Dec 2010, 12:33 pm

matrixluver wrote:
I can relate to is that pulling a child with Autism out to homeschool leads to further regression with social skills.


That's a big, fat myth. I was homeschooled and my social skills improved greatly.


_________________
I'm not weird, you're just too normal.


Chronos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Apr 2010
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,698

19 Dec 2010, 3:17 pm

AnotherOne wrote:
Our problem in short: we had a very bad experience with school services and like to help our 6 yo our own way. despite his good academics and mostly good behavior, his regular school constantly forces special services for him. honestly, i have had enough and we are looking into private schools.
he is formal in his learning i.e. straightforward style meaning we can just talk and practice from practice sheets. this is a reason while we went with a "standard" school. at this point we are looking into all other options and i am interested if anyone has an experience with montessory school?


I went to a montessori school for preschool, and that was fine. For a school in which one has to learn things like reading, and mathematics, I'm not sure that would be the right move. On one hand, kids on the spectrum get stressed when they are not allowed time to go off by themselves and process things, and a particularly structured school might rob them of this. On the other hand, children with AS usually do need very structured instruction when learning things like reading and mathematics. Most especially mathematics I think.

You might try a montessori school in combination with structured tutoring for mathematics and reading. I can't really think of anything else one learns in elementary school that is so vital it needs to be committed completely accurately to memory...except science.



Stubbydog
Hummingbird
Hummingbird

User avatar

Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 20

19 Dec 2010, 3:30 pm

Both of my children (not diagnosed but with a few possibly AS-type traits) are in a Montessori school. My 6 year old daughter is in Lower Elementary, and my 3 year old son is in preschool. They both excel where they are, but I have noticed this year that my daughter has more trouble motivating herself to get work done. Since Montessori is child-led education, I think that certain personalities tend to do better than others. My daughter is bright but can wallow in indecision if left to her own devices :D. Next year we plan to move her to public school...the biggest reason she is in Montessori this year is because her birthday is just past the public school cutoff. Long story, but it made the most sense to keep her there for this year.

I also think it depends a lot on the school & teachers, as usual.



AnotherOne
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2009
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 454

19 Dec 2010, 8:27 pm

matrixluver wrote:
I can relate to is that pulling a child with Autism out to homeschool leads to further regression with social skills. What type of services is your school "forcing?" The opposite usually happens- parents who have children with Autism that excel academically can't get services that the child needs in the areas of social skills and conversation skills. Having good social skills is far more complicated than having polite manners. Teens and adults with ASDs who aren't taught how the NT world works carry a large target for bullies on their backs. The rate of depression for adults and teens with ASDs far surpasses that of the general population.
Also, regarding "practice sheets," individuals with ASDs excel at memorization and learning from rules. Where problems exist would be the area of application of skills to multiple and novel settings. I'm sure there are some jobs out there where use of rote memory is needed, but most jobs require problem solving as well.


thanks, i do believe hat you wanted to help but i simply disagree on every count there.
similar to you, school and we do not have the same view and probably never will due to different experiences thus we try to find someone who will have the same goals.



AnotherOne
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2009
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 454

19 Dec 2010, 8:39 pm

Chronos: thanks, I was reluctant to try Montessori just because of that however the thing that you proposed might work. we anyway make sure that his academics is on track and we are very good with math (and son seems to be good too).

Stubbydog: yeah, my son has self-motivation problem. he doesn't even play if not ordered to. we'll see. thanks for sharing.



petrel
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 4 Sep 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 31

20 Dec 2010, 6:57 am

it probably depends more on the specific school and the specific teacher than on any particular philosophy. In my experience, a school with a more flexible attitude is best, regardless of its underlying philosophical leanings. I am especially wary of schools which are convinced they've got the magical solution that works for everyone...there simply is not one thing, one method, one answer that will work universally for every child. Often, schools which are doing very well by standardized measures and which have a strong academic reputation fall into this category.

I like montessori. My kids did well in a relaxed montessori environment. But too-rigid adherence to montessori philosophy is as much a problem as any other. Example: Montessori says that kids must progress through certain stages of activities and demonstrate mastery before they can move on. However, it does not address the fact that some kids will be so unmotivated by the easier stages of something that they will not demonstrate the required mastery. Some of them need to be given the more advanced material first. You need a teacher who recognizes that each child is individual.

And, homeschooling does not stunt social development. There are an overwhelming number of non-school activities that homeschool kids can be involved in and most of them are more positive social environments than school.



AnotherOne
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2009
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 454

20 Dec 2010, 10:19 am

petrel wrote:
it probably depends more on the specific school and the specific teacher than on any particular philosophy. In my experience, a school with a more flexible attitude is best, regardless of its underlying philosophical leanings. I am especially wary of schools which are convinced they've got the magical solution that works for everyone...there simply is not one thing, one method, one answer that will work universally for every child. Often, schools which are doing very well by standardized measures and which have a strong academic reputation fall into this category.

I like montessori. My kids did well in a relaxed montessori environment. But too-rigid adherence to montessori philosophy is as much a problem as any other. Example: Montessori says that kids must progress through certain stages of activities and demonstrate mastery before they can move on. However, it does not address the fact that some kids will be so unmotivated by the easier stages of something that they will not demonstrate the required mastery. Some of them need to be given the more advanced material first. You need a teacher who recognizes that each child is individual.

And, homeschooling does not stunt social development. There are an overwhelming number of non-school activities that homeschool kids can be involved in and most of them are more positive social environments than school.


I totally agree that for a different child, a teacher matters the most. The problem is that they change every year in public schools and since we are all (we as parents in our approach and son in his behavior) very off the chart, ensuring that each teacher understands this, has a low probability.

Homeschooling is a problem because of time. We simply have too much on our plate as it is but we'll keep it as our last option.



alicedress
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Age: 31
Gender: Female
Posts: 218

20 Dec 2010, 2:42 pm

All I can really tell you is that you need to be careful. Some schools will take your money and do little to nothing for your kid.



Zur-Darkstar
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 332

20 Dec 2010, 11:11 pm

PunkyKat wrote:
matrixluver wrote:
I can relate to is that pulling a child with Autism out to homeschool leads to further regression with social skills.


That's a big, fat myth. I was homeschooled and my social skills improved greatly.


It's a myth whether you have AS or not. Schoolyard socializing is often useless or dysfunctional, and can do as much harm as it does good. Socializing extensively with adults is much more useful if you want your child to behave the way adults do. The "social skills" myth is perpetuated by teachers unions, governments, and other groups that have a vested interest in kids going to public schools. The government puts hurdles in front of parents who want to home school despite ample evidence that home-schooled children are actually more successful in college and in life in general. They do this primarily for money, as every kid helps them get more state and federal dollars.

This is doubly so for a kid with AS, because in addition to the usual bad influences kids get in public schools, they'll also be bullied and ostracized and put at risk for a whole host of other unpleasant mental illnesses. Further, they won't get much out of the unstructured, unsupervised socializing that generally occurs at school, because they lack the instincts to understand what's going on.

If you have the means, send the kid to a private school that places an emphasis on academics and discipline.



PunkyKat
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 May 2008
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,492
Location: Kalahari Desert

20 Dec 2010, 11:40 pm

Zur-Darkstar wrote:
PunkyKat wrote:
matrixluver wrote:
I can relate to is that pulling a child with Autism out to homeschool leads to further regression with social skills.


That's a big, fat myth. I was homeschooled and my social skills improved greatly.


It's a myth whether you have AS or not. Schoolyard socializing is often useless or dysfunctional, and can do as much harm as it does good. Socializing extensively with adults is much more useful if you want your child to behave the way adults do. The "social skills" myth is perpetuated by teachers unions, governments, and other groups that have a vested interest in kids going to public schools. The government puts hurdles in front of parents who want to home school despite ample evidence that home-schooled children are actually more successful in college and in life in general. They do this primarily for money, as every kid helps them get more state and federal dollars.

This is doubly so for a kid with AS, because in addition to the usual bad influences kids get in public schools, they'll also be bullied and ostracized and put at risk for a whole host of other unpleasant mental illnesses. Further, they won't get much out of the unstructured, unsupervised socializing that generally occurs at school, because they lack the instincts to understand what's going on.

If you have the means, send the kid to a private school that places an emphasis on academics and discipline.


Someone PLEASE explain to me why your friends must be the exact same age as you? I'd rather have a six year old pal around with a trustworthy teenager or elderly person than another six year old who was a horrible example. I'd rather a socialy akward teenager mentor a pre teen than old than be bullied and taken advantage of by other kids


_________________
I'm not weird, you're just too normal.


DandelionFireworks
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,011

21 Dec 2010, 5:50 pm

Power and intelligence differences. NTs have different things that interest them at six and ten and sixteen and twenty. A normal teenager (not us) wants to talk about boys all the time, whereas a (normal) six-year-old doesn't really understand sex yet. Also, up until, say, twenty, most people want to be older, or look older, and have an aversion to seeming babyish. So, hanging out with little kids... yeah.

Our society has decreed that you gain power as you gain age. Part of that happens naturally-- you gain in life experience (and, generally, wisdom) as you get older, and you also get bigger and stronger-- and part is cultural and legal. (That part is stupid and needs to go away and maybe die a million deaths.) Relationships are based on equality. You have to be on a roughly equal footing.

If a seventeen-year-old complains about difficult math homework, he's probably struggling to remember the quadratic formula. If a seven-year-old's math homework is diffult, he's probably having trouble grasping division. There's no way to sympathize there. The seven-year-old can't help the seventeen-year-old. If the seventeen-year-old tries to help the seven-year-old, he'll probably get frustrated, or look at how easy it is for him and lose respect for the seven-year-old. With something like that between people who are closer in age-- within a year or two-- there's equal give and take, and understanding because they're working on similar things. Differences in aptitude mean they can both help each other, whereas if they have the same aptitude they can commiserate.

The way you play and interact changes with age.

There's an odd sort of weird cultural thingy where people think kids can't stand up for themselves, therefore hurting/defeating them is BAD, therefore they have to always defeat adults. Relationships are based on give and take. They're not precisely wars, but a lot of the time there are friendly battles, and relationships thrive where both parties do everything in their power short of taking it seriously to win, and neither party wins much more often than the other. So it can be hard. The child might just lose all the time. So that's not good. And letting them win is no good. But defeating them is supposed to be BAD. So they have to win all the time, making it not really a friendship.

That said, it's been my experience that intergenerational friendships work just fine with only slightly more effort. Sometimes not even that.


_________________
I'm using a non-verbal right now. I wish you could see it. --dyingofpoetry

NOT A DOCTOR


momsparky
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,772

21 Dec 2010, 10:26 pm

Some personal experience with Montessori that may or may not be related to my relationship with the Autism spectrum - I was placed in a montessori preschool 40 or so years ago. The way it worked in that particular classroom was that you had to complete each individual part of a lesson before you could progress.

The problem was, I learned to read between my first and second year of preschool - and, by read, I mean books with sentences. The school required that children be able to read "books," which were packets containing unrelated groups of words before they would allow you to read a story on your own. Without knowing that was what I was doing, I went on strike. I knew I could read fluently, had no interest in following rules for rules' sake (this was also an issue later with SRA's, remember them?) and so I would go to the "wash the shell" station every day and wash the shell for as long as possible, stopping only for the group activity and snack.

I would hope the curriculum has adapted to allow for outlier children, but I'd check and make sure they have a strategy for kids who refuse to do the work because they have already learned the subject matter.



Zur-Darkstar
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 332

21 Dec 2010, 11:52 pm

DandelionFireworks wrote:
Power and intelligence differences. NTs have different things that interest them at six and ten and sixteen and twenty. A normal teenager (not us) wants to talk about boys all the time, whereas a (normal) six-year-old doesn't really understand sex yet. Also, up until, say, twenty, most people want to be older, or look older, and have an aversion to seeming babyish. So, hanging out with little kids... yeah.

Our society has decreed that you gain power as you gain age. Part of that happens naturally-- you gain in life experience (and, generally, wisdom) as you get older, and you also get bigger and stronger-- and part is cultural and legal. (That part is stupid and needs to go away and maybe die a million deaths.) Relationships are based on equality. You have to be on a roughly equal footing.

If a seventeen-year-old complains about difficult math homework, he's probably struggling to remember the quadratic formula. If a seven-year-old's math homework is diffult, he's probably having trouble grasping division. There's no way to sympathize there. The seven-year-old can't help the seventeen-year-old. If the seventeen-year-old tries to help the seven-year-old, he'll probably get frustrated, or look at how easy it is for him and lose respect for the seven-year-old. With something like that between people who are closer in age-- within a year or two-- there's equal give and take, and understanding because they're working on similar things. Differences in aptitude mean they can both help each other, whereas if they have the same aptitude they can commiserate.

The way you play and interact changes with age.

There's an odd sort of weird cultural thingy where people think kids can't stand up for themselves, therefore hurting/defeating them is BAD, therefore they have to always defeat adults. Relationships are based on give and take. They're not precisely wars, but a lot of the time there are friendly battles, and relationships thrive where both parties do everything in their power short of taking it seriously to win, and neither party wins much more often than the other. So it can be hard. The child might just lose all the time. So that's not good. And letting them win is no good. But defeating them is supposed to be BAD. So they have to win all the time, making it not really a friendship.

That said, it's been my experience that intergenerational friendships work just fine with only slightly more effort. Sometimes not even that.


I'm not sure having a relationship being on equal footing is all that relevant. Many of our most important adult relationships and interactions are not equal (boss/employee, doctor/patient, waiter/customer). I'm also not sure healthy relationships among equals is what you generally get with unsupervised socialization among children. What you're describing is an idealized version of what friendships should be like. Actual reality is not so cooperative. Further, would a relative lack of same age friendships translate into relational trouble in adults. Do home school children have dysfunctional marriages, lower incomes, higher rate of mental illness? It's not enough to just say "this is how most people behave therefore we all should".

The key ultimately is supervision, regardless of the nature of the interaction. The younger the child, the more supervision is needed. Supervised, kids can be directed to healthy activities and positive behaviors interacting with each other or with adults. Unsupervised, you've essentially put a bunch of wild animals in a cage and are hoping things work out. No, I'm not saying we should treat our kids like our dogs, but we should think a lot more realistically about what is likely to be happening when kids are not being directly supervised. Home school parents can put their kids in activities like scouts or church groups or w/e where they can supervise more closely and get same age interaction. I'm not going to buy into the need for kids to be chucked into a schoolyard and left to fend for themselves unless I see some evidence this is actually helping children grow in positive ways.