Negotiating (or trying to) with my ex-AS husband.

Post Reply New Topic

Hi everyone.

I am (relatively) NT, have an 8yo AS son (dx when he was 6), a 10yo who MAY have a milder case of AS, and a now ex-spouse who has been dx AS (two years ago).

My spouse, let's call him E, and I separated almost two years ago, but continued to live in the same home until six weeks ago. He has now moved into an apartment close by, and the kids continue to live with me 6.5 days a week.

E and I were together for 20 years. The difficulty we experienced with our emotional life was typical to AS, or at least I learned this after our son was diagnosed and we realized that E was probably AS as well. He was diagnosed soon after. I am glad he has this information, but it seems that he is now relying on it as an excuse to not engage with his sons (earlier, he used it as a reason that I was unreasonable to "need" what I needed emotionally and in the way of communication from him). He is in counseling with someone who understands AS, but as far as I can tell, E uses these sessions to try to work through his dissatisfaction with his workaholic job as opposed to learning how he can be a more engaged father or better communicator (within reason).

When E moved out, he dropped off the planet. My texts, email and even calls have been largely ignored. For the most part, these communications deal with our children; but some do deal with our separation, legal issues, and communication challenges. Face to face, E is incredibly defensive, and the slightest attempt on my part to open a conversation or follow up on an issue raised is usually met with either anger or a proclamation that I am being unreasonable and that E does not have to "deal with that". I am told with regularity that I "choose" to feel angry or frustrated or ignored or hurt.

When the kids are with him for a day or a night, he can manage, but there is little in the way of real engagement. The kids watch movies or tv, play video games. E surfs on his computer.

He is not engaged in the on-going fight with the school over getting our AS son the support he needs. He does not manage anything in the way of their sports schedules, extracurricular activities, social skills, counseling, social lives, etc. When I do attempt to ask for his input in any of there areas, I am generally met with silence or a passive "sounds good".

I am worn out. I must say that having him move out finally did lighten the load a considerable amount from the standpoint of my daily life. I now do not have to face the day-to-day heaviness of him in the home -- the long sighs, the eternal "I'm tired" response to any request I made for either a discussion or help in the home, the rages when I'd push for help, the mess and disorganization, the eternal disappointment and frustration of trying to reach him.

I do know that he can't help these things to a great extent. I do not blame him for a lot of the hurt, I know that he did not mean to hurt me, or to let our children down. But I believe that he could alter his responses with work. That if he would accept the impact of his challenge on his children, and on me as a co-parent, he could learn to respond differently at least in some circumstances. But he is very clearly not willing to do this. Perhaps he just simply can't feel or see the need, the impact.

I wonder if anyone else out there has the same experience?

Please realize most of Wrong Planet, including the Women's discussion are essentially people on the spectrum. This is not exactly the place to find a sympathetic ear for your problems with an AS spouse, partner or ex. This forum is largely for people on the spectrum. If anything it is a place to seek out a critical understanding of how we work. We tend to be hyper-critical of NTs here, largely because we think so differently in such an essential way. This is not a place to hear from other NTs.

The Women's discussion is mostly women who are on the spectrum, not NT women who are married to AS men, as you may have thought. You should have read through some of the posts before posting and you would have realized this.

With much of what you are saying you are a cause of emotional and social stress in his life, I can see why he was disengaged. You want him to better communicate, but communicate in a way that is natural to you, but is hard to engage that way for somebody on the spectrum. Instead of expecting him to adapt to fit YOUR communication style, you need to fit his communication style. I hate to break it to you...he can't adapt, but you can adapt. Social-emotional communication styles are not something people on the spectrum strive at, especially conversation. I will put this outright, the obligations for somebody on the spectrum are VERY DIFFERENT for somebody who is NT as well, this is another thing many NTs, especially NT women do not understand. He is avoiding talking to you for good reason. I think you are making some foolish assumptions. The whole "he can change with work" is not something that is necessarily true, from my own experiences it is better for a NT to adapt to the quirks of AS behavior and communication than an AS to adapt to NT behavior and communication. Quite simply we lack alot of the abilities that NT have with regards to social-emotional reasoning, communication, etc. So my advice change to suit his communication style, you will get much further.

Basically you need to communicate things in a way he can approach and understand. You need to be almost cold and logical in your communication. I also suggest writing letters/email as it gives him time to process the information, rather than wanting something immediately, communication processing, especially with big issues is a problem on the spectrum. You never gave him the space or proper communication method to process, and thus why he melted down. Do not put anything where he has to read inbetween the lines, everything needs to be direct and clear, and most importantly NON-EMOTIONAL, no matter how important. Present issues as a logical problem to be solved. Again, this needs to be in writing. I would suggest avoiding anything important in verbal communication, because in your case it may be too much. The key is to adapt your communication to him, not expect for him to adapt to be a better communicator, because it is just not going to happen. It is the stupid assumption of NT women to expect AS men to change rather than to communicate on a level AS men can understand. Also keep verbal conversations simple and non-emotional. The heavy important subjects have to be in writing only from this point on, and free of emotional aspects. Emotional processing and communication is very difficult for those on the spectrum, our two responses are either to disengage/avoid or to melt down when presented with certian problems.

I am presenting this to you for a reason, he is NOT going to adapt to you, you need to adapt to him. Never present the important stuff in verbal conversation or emotionally weighted.

Like it or not, he is going to be distant, that is just who he is.

But from what I can tell it is far too late on your part. He doesn't want to deal with you from everything you are putting forward. I will be honest, this is a typical ASD, we cut off as much as possible people who are cause for undue stress in our life. If I were to discuss with you the communication methods that work with an AS partner I am not sure how much help it would be because more than likely your bridges are probably burnt to a cinder. Basically just talking with you is a cause of significant stress for him, so he rather disengage. That is why I suggest communicating in writing. Like I said though, you need to adapt that form of communication to him, not expect him to adapt.

What you call rages, are in fact meltdowns. It was probably caused by negative emotional social stimulation and environmental stimulas. Not really rages as you see them, in fact it probably illustrates how in over your head you are going to be with your AS children. You are the typical NT who really has no understanding of this who really needs to understand how people on the spectrum tick. This requires research from an AS perpsective, we literally are wired differently, and you are going to need to adapt to that going forward. You barely understand how we think, and I suggest while your relationship with your husband is beyond redemption, you really need to understand how this works for the sake of the long term relationship with your children. Right now you are completely clueless in terms of how people on the spectrum work.

I can't say I have much sympathy for you, people on the spectrum think differently and you seem to have never took the time or research to understand how. Instead you were hoping for change where it is not really possible.

Yeah, not feeling much sympathy here either. Why is it whenever someone gets dx'd with AS, all the problems they have in their relationship are contributed to AS? Why can't the other people take an ounce of accountability for their own failings here? Dysfunctional relationships between adults are a two-way street. Just because one person as AS doesn't mean you get to blame it all of that person. And I especially love how SHE says HE'S blaming it all on his AS and using AS as an excuse to not be accountable.

You do realize that he has had needs too, right? And this may be the first time in his relationship with you that he can stand up for himself and for what he needs. So I have to wonder if you're just twisting his words to make it sound like he's being selfishness and mean when it was really him confronting you about your selfishness.

It's not just about your needs. Your own failure to understand his needs all this time likely contributed heavily to his unwillingness or inability to do anything other than, after 20 years with you, what he knows he can at least do right--his job. I am curious--how often did you verbally berate him over the years, telling him things like "You don't listen,""You don't care," You ignore your kids," etc. etc. etc., drilling to his head that he's a failure? Honestly? Here's the funny thing about people with AS--when you say to someone with AS that they're a just a worthless piece of sh!t, they usually will genuinely believe you. Yeah, we take people at their word. We're very horrible people that way. And when you do it repeatedly, it just hammers that message into stone. Now he's probably emotionally shut done and can't find it within himself to try to be a better father, and you're still telling him it's still all his fault. God, I pity this poor man. Whatever he's done, he doesn't deserve excessive perpetual punishment like this for it.

And another thing, why are you assuming to know what's going on in his sessions? Are you privy to what they discuss? Or are you just looking for an excuse to berate him in a new way, and to belittle something that may actually be helping him meet his own needs? Do you think that whatever he does, it has to be all about you and what you want from him? Do you think he owes you like that? Just because it's not getting the immediate results YOU want doesn't mean it's not getting him the help he needs. Again, you seem completely oblivious to that fact he has needs himself and hey, guess what, those needs aren't going to be prioritized according to what you want from him. Your ex sounds lie he's depressed--no surprise. I'm spiraling into depression after reading your comment. There's no quick fix for his situation. Your ex is a human being, his own human being--he is not just YOUR ex, not just the father to YOUR children, OK? He has needs that likely have been ignored for all his life, or at least for the length of your marriage. That's a lot of ground to make up. It'll likely take him several years to make substantial process overcoming his emotional brokenness of having lived that long with woman who couldn't accept him for who and what he is. Nice job, BTW. Really making us women look good.

And yes, you DO choose how you respond to his actions and behavior, and if you refuse to accept your own accountability, you ARE being unreasonable. Own your own sh!t. It's what you expect of him, right? And get some therapy yourself. God, you really need it.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame his behavior on AS.

Just keep sending your messages and e-mail concerning the things pertaining to the kids so he can't so no one ever told him, and let the lawyers deal with him on other issues.

Most of the time, yes, but not all of the time. Sometimes, it IS just one person's fault, for example, when the other person REFUSES to communicate their needs and leaves the other person guessing all the time, or when the person is intentionally passive aggressive.

Hi Hedlo,

Like others pointed out, this website is primarily for persons on the Spectrum themselves, but I hope that doesn't deter you from visiting. I think you could learn a lot here and that the Parents Forum in particular might be helpful for you and your family. It sounds like you are fairly new to ASD, so I hope others will bear that in mind.

As both someone with AS and someone who has also been in long-term relationships with people with AS, I can understand both sides to some degree and think the most helpful thing for you to do is to educate yourself as much as you possibly can. A common complaint of NT spouses (and a particular NT ex-boyfriend of mine) seems to be that we cannot see things from perspectives other than our own. I know this must be frustrating, but bear in mind that people who do not understand our perspectives are frustrating to us, too.

Your husband has had to deal with people who have not understood his point-of-view his entire life and has not understood what was different about himself until very recently. (You mentioned his lack of engagement in getting your son the support he needs. You are right--proper support and understanding is so important, and your husband is going to have a lot of aftermath to deal with following a lifetime lacking in these).

It is likely that he was blamed for his differences throughout his life without knowing why, so, to me, his defensiveness is a very human, natural reaction, even if it is not a helpful one. A late-in-life AS dx is earth-shattering for some people and he may not yet know what to do with this completely new frame-of-reference for his life, even if he does have some desire to change aspects of his life.

Not to give you another thing to worry about, but projecting a negative attitude towards your husband's AS and AS in general will have direct consequences for your sons' self-esteem, even if you do not directly share these attitudes in front of them. Some of us may not seem communicative, but we are like little sponges and pick up on this stuff. Hope you'll sitck around and meet more of us in order to understand we have good qualities, too. Good luck and welcome.

I disagree, no one needs to adapt to anyone if he/she doesn't want to. The world doesn't revolve around people with AS.

I wasn't clear on whether or not OP and the ex have joint custody, but if the ex isn't doing a good job as a father and is ignoring OP's attempt at communicating with him regarding the kids, then maybe OP should consider appealing the custody decision.

For the AS son's sake, though, I agree with blueroses:



(And for the record, I thought the defensive/nasty responses were unnecessary. I didn't get the impression OP was being an ass about the whole situation to have it coming. )

I'd like to offer a little advice out of pity for all of you.

First, does he want to be a part of the children's lives? Did he ask or fight for visitation rights every week? If so, then it's important to him regardless of how it looks to you. For many of us, just being in the same room as other people feels fairly social. He probably feels like he's making a connection, even if everyone is doing different things. You didn't mention your daughter being diagnosed, but many of us females miss diagnoses because we tend to present differently than boys. In any case, for your son at least it probably feels like he's connecting with his dad on those visits. Something else to remember is that the fact that his face isn't showing emotion does not necessarily mean that he is not experiencing emotion.
It is possible that he doesn't want to be a part of their lives or yours, and if that is the case then your role is going to be one of harm minimization for them. Note that making him out to be a monster and cutting off all contact does not count as 'harm minimization.'

If you want him to take more of a role helping with the kids, don't just dump it on him at once with short warning (short being less than a month). Weekly routines are important (for example, many of us carry PDAs not because it looks trendy but because we will forget to do anything that is not part of our regular schedule if we do not have an electronic reminder); suggest something like, 'Jenny will be starting karate on Wednesdays next semester, and will have practice from 6 to 7; I'd like you to think about picking her up and dropping her off.' If he has enough time to think about it, he might actually come to like the idea and he would probably be better about remembering it than you would once the pattern is established.

As far as him using his therapy as an 'excuse to work through his resentment,' it is important for you to realize that we do not feel like we are abnormal. We do not feel like there is anything wrong with us. To us, it seems that NTs are all crazy, not the other way around. NTs, in general, seem to think that we are responsible for managing their emotions, and seem to randomly explode into hysterics even when we are trying our hardest to keep the situation calm and logical.

This is a humorous site in which NTs are discussed using the same format that NTs use to discuss AS people. I post it not to be cruel, but to hope that the OP gets some insight into what NT people sometimes seem like to those of us with AS.
http://isnt.autistics.org/

OP already has 2 sons (and a daughter, apparently?) to take care of--she doesn't need to start babysitting her ex just because he happens to be the father of her kids. Besides, isn't this the person who said that OP chooses to feel angry or frustrated or ignored or hurt? If he doesn't care about how his action could affect someone else's feelings, then to hell with how he feels--it's his choice after all.



Making him out to be a monster would eventually make OP look bad, but then again kids will blame everything that's wrong with them on their parent(s) up till their mid-twenties anyway.

As for "harm minimization," there really isn't any way for that happen. Parents' divorce will always be tough on younger kids, and the divorcing parents need to quit doing crap they claim would be best for kids when all they do really is trying to make themselves feel better.

I must be one of the few here who thinks the husband is behaving like a child in regards to parenting and legal issues. Whether he LIKES communicating or not, (I certainlty don't) a marriage and children are a commitment, and you HAVE to whether you have "needs" or not.

I do feel for the op. I've watched the struggles my mother has been through having an aspergers husband. I have meltdowns on a regular basis. Imagine having to put up with that! Life certainly isn't a box of birds for people married to someone with our condition.

Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant or a liar.

No, you should NOT have to bend over backwards to accomodate someone with aspergers. You should meet halfway, and if he can't, he should have never married or started a family.

"But I believe that he could alter his responses with work. ......
he could learn to respond differently at least in some circumstances
...Perhaps he just simply can't .....see the need, the impact. "

He CANNOT alter his response. His brain does not work that way. He CANNOT learn to respond differently in some circumstances. (Even if he could script a different response...."some circumstances" is far too vague.)
And yes you are right, perhaps he CAN'T see the need.

The one who suffers the most with this is you, because you are NT.

My suggestion to you would be to raise your children by yourself, allow your ex-spouse to participate to the extent that he can (without compromising the children's safety; i.e. make sure they are really being supervised.) "Co-operative"-parenting as defined by an NT, will not be possible. You might try "scheduled" parenting. (It will at least give you some time without the constant demands and needs of the children.)

Also, being the primary caregiver/parent to 3 children on the spectrum is no small challenge. If you are NT you physically need more "social" and "emotional" sustenance than you can get at home. Find opportunities to socialize with NT's. You may be interested in an AS Partners support group (for NT's partnered with Aspies). Just google: "AS Partners"
Your post would have been perfect for that group and I think it will give you more insight into what you are experiencing.

Ummm. Has anyone explained to you what Asperger's IS? These sound like typical problems with communication, social interaction, emotional expressiveness, and executive functioning.
Have you considered that after 20 years together, it isn't in you to be able to see him in a new way?
My ex husband had the same problem after 11 years. He thought I was making excuses, attention-seeking, and wanting to be "special". Thankfully we didn't have kids.

I think you don't understand...he really IS tired. 20 years' worth of tired from trying to be normal and interact with humans. Trying to not fail at everything, and be told again and again how much of a failure he is.

Part of the reason you're getting such negative reactions is because this is, as has been stated, a forum for women ON the spectrum. Almost all of us have been ceaselessly complained to about all the things that annoy you about your husband. We have feelings, dammit.

Wrong, as*hole. I learned to own my problems at...I don't know...14?

as*hole? Nice and mature.

Lol. I just don't like hearing any social group dismissed as having something wrong with them, whether it's young people, gay people, single moms etc. And I didn't feel like typing up a carefully reasoned post

Insulting an entire forum and then acting like the one who responds back with an insult is being unreasonable? Nice and mature.