Beyond NT

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21 Feb 2011, 11:44 am

First post everybody.

I'm very new to AS and NT, so I'm still struggling with the basics. The first one is why the range of social behavior runs from normal to AS. Is there such a thing as over-socialized, beyond NT?

Example 1, I would argue that any AS, when presented with the evidence, would agree that evolution and natural selection is a fact. But for long-standing social reasons, many people are unable to make the connection. They're told by they're peers and people they respect that it's not real, and that's good enough.

Example 2: There are social structures that are built entirely on loyalty trust and fear, with little regard for the truth. It might go like this.

Saddam: So how are my weapons of mass destruction coming?
Scientist not wanting to be shot: Great! We're almost there!

I'm seriously wondering if some people are predisposed to social interaction over logic. If they are, is it for the same, but opposite reason that I'm predispsed to logic over social interactions?

If so, these people are more disabled than I am.

j0sh
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21 Feb 2011, 11:53 am

Something I've learned that I think you'll agree with:

statistical majority does not equal truth

Philologos
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21 Feb 2011, 12:45 pm

j0sh wrote:

Something I've learned that I think you'll agree with:

statistical majority does not equal truth

So very true.

Further, any AS personnel presented with CONFLICTING facts has to resolve it. Many people of course are fine believing two things in direct conflict.

Moog
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21 Feb 2011, 12:51 pm

Philologos wrote:

j0sh wrote:

Something I've learned that I think you'll agree with:

statistical majority does not equal truth

So very true.

Further, any AS personnel presented with CONFLICTING facts has to resolve it. Many people of course are fine believing two things in direct conflict.

Doublethink.

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wavefreak58
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21 Feb 2011, 1:28 pm

Philologos wrote:

j0sh wrote:

Something I've learned that I think you'll agree with:

statistical majority does not equal truth

So very true.

Further, any AS personnel presented with CONFLICTING facts has to resolve it. Many people of course are fine believing two things in direct conflict.

Compartmentalization of beliefs is necessary if you want to function. Holding two contradictory beliefs is required when neither can be sufficiently defined to resolve the conflict. If everything we believed had to be without contradiction, then we would be frozen into inaction while resolving everything that is inconsistent in our minds.

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21 Feb 2011, 3:35 pm

The_Gerbil wrote:

No offence intended, but I read that Japanese society is set up like this, although individuals aren't that different

I'd also like to make the observation that if there are a group of people, say 1 %, who are superior to others socially, scientists and psychologists aren't going to be motivated to discover it. To them everything seems to be normal (ie them) or below normal. If there were superior social beings - maybe they are nicer than the rest - the psychologists would say they were nuts. At best.

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Mdyar
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21 Feb 2011, 4:28 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:

Philologos wrote:

j0sh wrote:

Something I've learned that I think you'll agree with:

statistical majority does not equal truth

So very true.

Further, any AS personnel presented with CONFLICTING facts has to resolve it. Many people of course are fine believing two things in direct conflict.

+1
Necessarily necessary, but there is that tendency to leave it alone, and the growth stops. There is comfort and protection in mass thinking. It wins material rewards and security. Galileo spent the last years of his life under house arrest for heresy:

Quote:

Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[50]
He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[51] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.
His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[52]

Tomb of Galileo Galilei, Santa CroceAccording to popular legend, after recanting his theory that the Earth moved around the Sun, Galileo allegedly muttered the rebellious phrase And yet it moves, but there is no evidence that he actually said this or anything similar. The first account of the legend dates to a century after his death.

Nerdykid
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21 Feb 2011, 4:32 pm

Quote:

evolution and natural selection is a fact

I don't understand how people cannot believe in these things as they are fact.

The thing that is not fact is Macro evolution.

There has never been any proof that I have seen that one species can evolve into a completely different one. This is what I find as the flaw in the evolution talk.

In short I don't believe people evolved from Monkeys or Apes.

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21 Feb 2011, 5:08 pm

Nerdykid wrote:

Quote:

evolution and natural selection is a fact

If speciation is impossible, where do the species come from?

nemorosa
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21 Feb 2011, 5:17 pm

Verdandi wrote:

Nerdykid wrote:

Quote:

evolution and natural selection is a fact

If speciation is impossible, where do the species come from?

You may well indeed regret asking. In my experience debating with such entrenched thinking gets you nowhere. Whatever argument or proof you bring to the table they won't accept because to them it is about belief. The problem starts with the statement "I don't believe people evolved from Monkeys or Apes." Everything else flows from that.

That is all I have to say on this subject.

The_Gerbil
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21 Feb 2011, 5:20 pm

For starters, I'd recommend the essays of Stephen Jay Gould. He wrote an essay a month for the Journal Natural History, for 300 straight months. They should be available in the local library.

The Origin of Species is a classic and worth reading as well.

wavefreak58
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21 Feb 2011, 5:27 pm

Mdyar wrote:

wavefreak58 wrote:

Sadly, I believe you are correct. It seems that having conflicting beliefs does not generate much tension within many people and it is easier to just trundle ahead without any real attempts to resolve internal contradictions. I suppose it is plausible that Aspies have a lower tolerance for such cognitive dissonance. We seem to really want everything to fit into its place.

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Janissy
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21 Feb 2011, 7:13 pm

Nerdykid wrote:

[There has never been any proof that I have seen that one species can evolve into a completely different one. This is what I find as the flaw in the evolution talk.

.

Taxonomists chose to give every organism, living or extinct, a species name. This is why there is no such thing as "between species". Taxonomists never created that category.

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21 Feb 2011, 7:23 pm

Since there is no truly stable state of "species" categorization over the long term, then all living things are constantly in a state between species, I would think. And all are between species while also being species, because they are categorized from particular points in history, and thus defined in the state in which they were observed or recorded.

Last edited by Verdandi on 22 Feb 2011, 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Moog
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22 Feb 2011, 5:51 am

Did anyone else sing this title to the tune of 'beyond the sea'?

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jackbus01
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22 Feb 2011, 8:24 am

wavefreak58 wrote:

Mdyar wrote:

wavefreak58 wrote:

I really, really don't understand how people can live their life without wanting to question and resolve things. I don't understand not having that mindset.

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