Draw up a list of perversions caused by religion:

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Hey, let's all build a list together of perversions caused by religion.

1) Intellectual stagnation as false sources are upheld as inerrant works of truth.
2) Intellectual stagnation as the apologetic for the religion shapes the approach one has to greater truths, and tries to block the way for legitimate growth of knowledge.
3) The moral stagnation caused by societies living by dead standards that really only hurt individuals.
4) The cultural corruption caused by religious music, videos, etc.
5) Celibacy
6) Unnecessary hierarchies
7) Hierarchical oppression
8 ) Dogmatism
9) Doctrines that are psychologically harming
10) A psychological engagement that hurts deconverts and prevents deconversion.

Come on, it isn't hard, lets go!! !

Lets see:

1) Intellectual stagnation as false sources are upheld as inerrant works of truth.

Yes. Marxism, Fascism, certain documents held as central to various academic disciplines, ....

2) Intellectual stagnation as the apologetic for the religion shapes the approach one has to greater truths, and tries to block the way for legitimate growth of knowledge.

Yes, indeed, several academic disciplines [forget Linguistics, my brother turfed for backing the wrong form of evolutionary theory.

3) The moral stagnation caused by societies living by dead standards that really only hurt individuals.

Yes, Phys Ed, social integration, other aspects of elementary education. One could go on sat higher levels.

4) The cultural corruption caused by religious music, videos, etc.

weellll - Heard any Bach lately? Watched A Man for all Seasons? SO much more corrupting than rap and the Simpsons.

5) Celibacy

A terrible perversion undermining pedophilia, S&M, overpopulation, the anortion rate and Global Warming.

6) Unnecessary hierarchies

NAME THREE NECESSARY HIERARCHIES - and tell me how no religion eliminates hierarvchies EXCEPT in the etymological sense which no reader but yrs trly is likely to think of.

7) Hierarchical oppression

See above. Find me hierarchies without oppression

8 ) Dogmatism

Yeah, no dogmatism outside religion. You must deal with VERY different people from me.

9) Doctrines that are psychologically harming

Need I even speak at this point? The purely secular doctrines I was raised with made me KNOW I was inferior in my own mother's eyes. Sheer luck I was conceiede enough to know she was wrong.

10) A psychological engagement that hurts deconverts and prevents deconversion.

Read some of the accounts of longterm leftists who realised what was wrong and left the fold.

You covered quite a bit with your broad list, but even you had some overlap, so I think it's acceptable that my list will include subsets of general categories thus alluded to:

• Homophobia, racism, sexism
• Abortion clinic bombings
• Crusades, Jihads, and other Holy War
• Censorship
• A generation of children taken from their familes to be "de-paganized" (intra-religious strife) - the resultant alcoholism and social problems readily apparent
• Prickly thin-skinned people unwilling to engage in intellectually honest debate
• A cultural mindset of viewing debates as "imposing"
• The subjugation of women
• The continued existence of conservative parties

Actually Marxism isn't that stagnant in my view. I mean, it's role in sociology is legitimate.

Fascism is actually dead by this point.


He has a point on linguistics though, as Chomsky's innate grammar ideas have been considered a variant of Intelligent Design kind of thinking as opposed to evolutionary incrementalism.


Not actually following.


What I mostly meant was things like derivative music, and overly hammy productions. Rap and the Simpsons can both be legitimate, and the Simpsons actually did have a good cultural peak.


Except as M_P pointed out, it likely actually promotes pedophilia by creating a culture that is more welcoming to that kind of tension with one's innate sexual desires.

Also.... I don't have an issue with S&M or the abortion rate, and Global warming is utterly beside the point. As well..... I don't think overpopulation will ever be solved by celibacy. Just sayin' as most people want progeny.


Uh.... I don't know what you want me to say. I mean, I am not sure that there is a logically required hierarchy, making the question hard for me to know. I mean, I suppose parents might be one situation, but.... maybe we don't need hierarchies for the organization of society or production, but rather perhaps a flatter system is logically possible. (I have doubts, but I won't assume that this is outright impossible even if I doubt many implementations)

Even further, I don't see how religions tend to eliminate hierarchies given that they almost always ADD a layer or two or three or so on and so forth.


Eh, depends on whether parents are to be regarded as oppressive.


Except that's not what I said at all. For "dogmatism" to stand against religion, all that religion has to do is promote it, or encourage it, or cause it in some form or fashion. Your interpretation is false, and potentially to the point of dishonesty.


Well.... yes? Hell is a troubling belief. Believing that the way you are is inherently wrong in the eyes of God is a very troubling belief. I mean, to say that other beliefs are troubling isn't to take away from this.


Umm..... the religious issue is considered more extreme as a general rule. People of religion not only lose all elements of identity(which being left-wing doesn't provide), but they also lose their community, have long-standing feelings of guilt, and so on, all of which are not necessary losses from leaving the left-wing.

I've changed political views quite a bit, and I've changed religious views. I know which of the two is the bigger change.

Abortion clinic bombings killed how many people? Why does this, along with the Salem Witch Trials, and McCarthy witch hunt for communists - hit so close to the heart that one would use it as systemic, paradigmatic, and an indictment of wrong doing on the opposing side... The example is less powerful when one applies numbers and scales it to its rank amongst evils committed in human history.

AG, I will get back to you when my laptop is not onmy lap
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MP, your list is a little harder:

# Homophobia, racism, sexism

Universal - the universality of theism is not causal

# Abortion clinic bombings

If limited to Abortion clinic bombings, not bombings in general, you get this one - though it is not strictly theism but a specific doctrine of certain religions.. If you were not so spcific, I might bring up certain animal rights attacks, but your wording is careful.

# Crusades, Jihads, and other Holy War
There is little special about "holy wars" except the motivatoion of SOME fighters.

# Censorship

Come on. ONLY RELIGION CENSORS??? Get real


# A generation of children taken from their familes to be "de-paganized" (intra-religious strife) - the resultant alcoholism and social problems readily apparent

If not depaganized it would have been detribalized - nonconformity is universally anathema.

# Prickly thin-skinned people unwilling to engage in intellectually honest debate

I was RAISED in academia. Don't try to tell me that is theism caused.

# A cultural mindset of viewing debates as "imposing"

I am not sure what you mean by this. Most of the actively debate minded I have known - not all, no - have been religious.

# The subjugation of women

Guess again. Cross cultural if not universal and an area where some religions copy society rather than thre other way around.

# The continued existence of conservative parties

Oh, Lord, LOord, HOW LONG? Oh, YES, ther can be no conservatism without religion. Buy a history book.

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Just out of curiosity, what makes celibacy a perversion? Presumably you mean just the voluntary kind, but perhaps not?

On a personal note, boy do I wish I could stop wasting my time reading threads like this, yet it appears resistance is futile. I am ashamed to admit I was a fan of professional wrestling for the better part of a decade, until I finally grew bored. And doubtless the attraction of these threads springs from the same place in the muck that passes as my consciousness. Seems to be just about the same amount of posturing and showmanship between the two, though hopefully with less spandex here than there.

Grade for the Exercise:

MB, Beta minus. Your list was carefully written, but several items ill chosen.

AG, Beta plus. I weight choice of entries higher than form.

Huh? I hope that I'm not the only one in a Spandex outfit.

America can easily revert to Fascism. The historical ratio between public and private spending has been 35% Public, and 65% private. Our government - Thanks to Bush and Obama - are moving towards 50% and matching or passing some EU nations along the way. Match that with our nationalistic character and yes, Fascism is alive and well.

Fascism = National Socialism = Economic/Cultural Nationalism + Economic/Cultural Socialism

State Capitalism is a modern-day variation but keeps intact many of the elements of Fascism. China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, and a few others are its followers. Any form of socialism is in some way tribalism, and this is just tribalism based on nationhood, so it is an old idea with a new face.

Professional Wrestling - nice.

Yes, I got a nice chuckle out of that one!

Speaking of spandex, however, you should see me -- or no, maybe you should not -- in my winter-weather silk body suit!

I draw a blank there, so where, when, how did that happen?

I do mean a voluntary kind, yes. Mostly the objection is the degree to which celibacy involves repression of natural instincts for reasons only justifiable by the religious framework. If you just like being celibate, go for it. If you're being celibate because of Jesus, then that's a much worse issue.


Nope, there's actually more spandex. You just don't get to see it.

Unsure of the objection. Theism is a cause for homophobia and sexism given various theologies which promote the ideas based upon readings of the scripture.


The topic was religion, not theism.


Fail. Philologos, once again, the issue isn't whether something is the "only" source, but rather whether it promotes/causes a problem. I mean, I can say that drugs cause gang violence, but in saying this I am not saying gang violence has no other cause than drugs. You are taking claims of the former, and reading them as the latter, and... this just seems rather dishonest. It can be an honest mistake, but the overgeneralization you use is not treating your opposition correctly.


Yeah.... I have to agree with you on this. We'd just probably find that the line for conservative would change, but.... one can be conservative without being religious, and non-religious conservatism often ends up being Burkean in nature.

MR. Awe and Shockingly Glorious : I am NOW back at my desk and dare try to respond you:

AG: Actually Marxism isn't that stagnant in my view.
I could have written more defensively. Not so much Marx per se, but a lot of literature informed by perceived Marxism is rather sterile.

AG: Chomsky's innate grammar ideas have been considered a variant of Intelligent Design kind of thinking as opposed to evolutionary incrementalism.
I have to think Chomsky and I would be equally disgusted by this. I can't see him liking being associated with the concept, and his version of "innate ideas" just feeds mind-free material determinism, in my view.
Ph: Yes, Phys Ed, social integration, other aspects of elementary education. One could go on sat higher levels.
AG: Not actually following.
PH NOW: You had said: 3) The moral stagnation caused by societies living by dead standards that really only hurt individuals.
I suspect you are thinking at least of sexual mores, substance ingestion and the like. But "Mens sana in corpore sano" - ergo I have to dress funny and kill myself running around a track in Texas sun and "Citizenship" with all the Borgish assimilation it involves seem tp me to fit in with "dead standards that only hurt individuals"

Quote:

weellll - Heard any Bach lately? Watched A Man for all Seasons? SO much more corrupting than rap and the Simpsons.

What I mostly meant was things like derivative music, and overly hammy productions. Rap and the Simpsons can both be legitimate, and the Simpsons actually did have a good cultural peak.
Number 1 Son can speak positively of SOME rap and South Park. I personally cannot stand the Simpsons nor their creator, but de gustibus.

I am one hundred per cent with you on modern explicitly Christian usually Evangelical arts. These in many cases have the artistic merit of a second grade special ed school play I attended. I would argue that is not the THEISM - but people with more principles than talent and a captive audience who think ANYBODY can paint or do music or write a play. Case in point: Anti drug film shown in health class in 1958 [EVERYBODY laughed] Case in point: most cartoons pushing a policy [Sesame Street was not great but really not bad].

NO fanatic should be given a free ride in the arts. Sullivan writing hymn music - yes. Veghie Tales - I have young relatives who have liked them but - ehhhhh - No. And the same for any other movement, religious or no.
Celibacy:
AG - Just sayin' as most people want progeny.
No contest. I did myself and am amazed at the unexpected boon in at least two ways of Number 1 son.
BUT - not only religious are celibate, not all religious are celibate - over history rather a minority.
I do not know of non religious equivalents of the Skoptsy. I do know some Qi Gong and such advises celibacy - that we could quibble definitions, but i do not se that as theism. And many societies have imposed celibacy for certain periods on some members. As do some non-theistic Buddhist orders
Lifelong celibacy entered into when rather young to have thought it out and not significantly supported can be a problem when something had to give. This was a constant concern with the Desert Fathers.
Ph:

NAME THREE NECESSARY HIERARCHIES - and tell me how no religion eliminates hierarvchies EXCEPT in the etymological sense which no reader but yrs trly is likely to think of.
Ph Now: Sorry, I worded this poorly. You said religion introduces "unnecessary hierarchy". I am trying to object a. that ANY organization introduces hierarchy AND that in my view nearly all hierarchy is unnecessary. THEN I should have made it clear in words or punctuation I am TRYING to say "HAVING no religion" does nor eliminate hierrchy


AG: Eh, depends on whether parents are to be regarded as oppressive.
Of course parents may well be oppressive, or be seen as oppressive. And some families do operate a hierarchic structure. But simplex authority - responsibility relationships I would say are not necessarily strictly hierarchies. The parent - child relation and the chief - band relation I think impose a bit too much obligation on parent and chief.
Where you have a family with a clear patriarch matriarch etc. hierarchy you may well find at least benevolent dictatorship.

AG: For "dogmatism" to stand against religion, all that religion has to do is promote it, or encourage it, or cause it in some form or fashion. Your interpretation is false, and potentially to the point of dishonesty.
Ph: Them is fighting words. I HONESTLY thought you were trying to point out ills caused by religion. If you are simply listing bad things religions have done, that is a very different thing. And THAT is misleading, potentially to the point of dishonesty, if you allege as wrongs of religions things that humans do constantly whether religious or not.
If I complain about vegans because they are bigoted bores it is not exactly a condemnation if half the people I know, religious and irreligious, academic and other, vegan and carnivore, republicans and democrats and ap;oliticals alike are bigoted bores. It turns into Humans do problematic things, which hardly strikes a blow for atheism or blood sports.

AG: Hell is a troubling belief. Believing that the way you are is inherently wrong in the eyes of God is a very troubling belief. I mean, to say that other beliefs are troubling isn't to take away from this.
Ph noe: Even with my desktop in play I do not have it in me to treat this right. There is too much theory, some of which I am still systematizing - there are readings - you might find it interesting but this is not the time and place.
I will simply assert: The Fear of Hell or of Excommunication or of being a Disgrace or of Disinheritance or of Stupidity or Incompetence etc ktl usw - these when laid on those who are susceptible - some are more than others is wrong and evil, arguably one of the greatest evils. It is NOT - I can find you witnesses - the exclusive property of religion.

AG: People of religion not only lose all elements of identity (which being left-wing doesn't provide), but they also lose their community, have long-standing feelings of guilt, and so on, all of which are not necessary losses from leaving the left-wing.

I myself have never belonged to anything - my identity is inside and is actually not even conditional on being a Paleologos or on being a scholar of Linguistics. But over the past year mi mujer has read or heard in recording accounts by a number of people [David Horowitz the only name I can remember] which parallel closely what I have heard from or of people who left the rekligious fold.

And I can tell you, when I found myself ripped out of atheism and being pulled toward the slippery slope to the Black Hole of theism, while my identity was not tied to any group my atheism WAS a large and important component of my identity, which I had had