Just when I thought they were finally getting it

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I was talking to J yesterday about a discussion we'd had the night before (long story, there is a further post on the board) Any way, I asked him if he could think of 3 things that he may need my help with. It took a little while for a response but then he said "well I do need help with something but I'm not sure if I want it".

Of course I then asked him to explain. Maths was the response. J then went on to tell me that at school the other day the teacher had given them some sort of maths test, it sounds like it was done on the computer. He said you got about 30 seconds to answer each question before the test moved on to the next question. J kept getting skipped because he couldn't respond fast enough. One of the teachers noticed that he was struggling and tried to help. She sat with him and when the next question came up, read it to him then said " this one is very simple, surely you can do this". He felt even worse because no he couldn't do that one either. She then said" this is a 9 times table one, surely you know your times tables?" He said "No, I can only seam to remember my 5's and 10's". So thank you very much teacher, my kid now feels even worse than he did before.

I will be talking to the school on Monday, this was not his specific regular teacher, however she is in his classroom but she takes the younger children. J is in a composite class of grades 3,4,5 & 6, he is grade 6.

So not happy

So the educational system has swung back to rote memorization rather than actual understanding of what's going on?

I recall being thrown out of religious Ed class in primary school for asking if Adam and Eve were the first humans then where did Caine find his wife? I think I also asked about why the tree of knowledge was an apple?

Society is much easier to control if you reduce the number of experts and increase the number of novices. Novices don't ask questions, they follow orders.

Maybe go see the teacher. Hopefully that test doesnt count. No test should make you answer a question in so fast a time.

No, but apparently it is extremely difficult to do long division if you haven't memorized the multiplication tables. You'll never get it worked out in your head. They ask kids to memorize the basic math facts because that is the stepping stone to the longer equations. In our school they let the kids take their sweet time about it, it was never graded, but the kids knew that if they didn't have the multiplication tables memorized by 5th grade they would have a very difficult time doing the coursework (since they start with it early in 3rd grade, they have two years to accumulate that info into their brains, and they get a really pretty special award when they finally do). Concept first, memorize 2nd, and the reason for the memorization is explained to all the kids and the parents.

So if J is 12, it would be a common assumption that he had the tables memorized. It is unfortunate that he was working with someone who did not know his unique needs and status.

My son gets extra time to do his tests. He has to be trained to ask for his extra time just in case he gets a teacher who is not clued up.

Kids are allowed to use calculators in most tests so if calculators are banned then speed is probably also considered important.

I have a type of dyslexia with numbers....dyscalculia, you should look this up. Three of my kids have dyslexia so I think it may be sort of the same although I read and write very well I can not do math to save my life and my kids with dyslexia are great in math but have trouble with reading and writing. I found this site for you if you want to look it over
http://www.learninginfo.org/dyscalculia.htm

BTW...just ignore the whatever dealy they are trying to sell....just read the symptoms and see if that fits.
It also might help your son to know that people with dyscalculia and dyslexia are very intelligent and that I have it and have an above average IQ.

I imagine you would not like to hear this, but if he is in 6 grade he should know the tables by now. My Aspie is in 6 grade, too, and math is really though at this level. She is workubg on long multiplications, divisions, radication, you need to know the tables to perform all that. We bought a math board game, flash cards, and an iPad app, rocket math, to help her with the times tables becausr that was hard for her, but she is doing great right now. I agree he should not be working on time constrained basis because they get anxious and stop being functional, but he must work on the times tables.

Yeah ika I don't think many people need to hear that careless comment. Guess what math is hard. Not everyone is good at math. No need attacking a parent because their child has a hard time with math.

Does your son have an IEP - whether he does or not it may be worth it to ask them to test him for a math learning diability. With an IEP, accomodations in testing are fairly routine. Definitely address it with his educational team ASAP.

Dyscalculia. I have looked this up in the past, and I think it fits. I even brought it up within the student support group meeting last year, and his then year level teacher poo who'd it.

I will look it up again, copy out the info and take it back into the school.

And Yes I do know that he should know his basic maths by now, but he doesn't, and it's not because he hasn't tried.

I think what annoyed me most was the teacher's comment and having J do a timed test (especially in an area of great weakness).

Thanks for the support guys, I will let you know how it goes after I've spoken with his school.

Aurea, someone wrote movingly a while back about a sibling with severe discaclia, and how they've adapted just fine as an adult to various work arounds. Only you can decide ifJ is at that point, where you abandon the effort and go to work-arounds, but it won't be the end of the world if you do. Do you have some idea yet for career paths for him? That will all need to get factored in. I know it sounds early, but it actually isn't. All these pieces will have to fit together in some fashion for him. Not sure if that helps at all: bit of a tangent; but it is part of the picture.

Up date:

I printed off the dyscalculia info sheets and gave them to the school vp he says he will hand them on to the school psychologist (I'm not holding my breath)

I then spoke with J's classroom teacher, she appeared very concerned with the comments that were made. Apparently it wasn't a teacher that had tried to help him but a classroom helper. The teacher acknowledged that J did poorly on the test and stated that he has no concept of numbers.
She then gave me a series of cards and showed me how to use them. Apparently this is an alternative way of visually teaching number values and concepts that most schools no longer use but in the past has had great success. She told me that she just doesn't have the time to put into J that she would like, admittedly she has the hardest class of kids in the school. I will try this method at home if I can get him to co operate. I asked the teacher if she knew anything about dyscalculia, no she didn't but she did know about dyslexia. I explained that it was like dyslexia but with numbers, I asked her to get a copy of the print outs I'd given the vp.

I also discovered yesterday that year 6 graduation jumpers had been ordered and delivered to all that had placed an order. I had no knowledge of the jumper orders because once again J was missed/disregarded when the notes were handed out. NOT happy, I emailed the principle and vp last night. This not getting notes is an ongoing issue and most of it is not J's fault. Notes are sent home on Wednesday's mostly it seams. Wednesday is the day J is at the autism respite program. No Notes are kept for him, I have had to chase up several missing notes now. The principle is looking into seeing if another jumper can be ordered.

Dyscalculia is a psychology term and, while it may fit, in their vernacular, it is simply a math learning disability. If he has an IEP, and you request testing for a math disability, they are compelled to comply. If you only have a 504, it could be a bit more difficult to get them to do that testing. If the teacher is acknoweledging that he has difficulty, he needs intervention. He needs help in the classroom where the learning is supposed to be taking place. Putting him back to work at school tasks at home isn't necessarily beneficial. Making a kid on the spectrum work twice as hard isn't the answer. It only delineates his challenges more clearly for him and starts that slippery slope into anxiety.

Home should be a safe haven - not second school. It should be homework time and then personal time - time to just put all the stress and pressure of the day behind him. Trying to home school on top of a full school day is a recipe for meltdowns.

Dyscalculia.org

Lots of basic information as well educational plans located here.

Sounds as if he needs some intervention for executive function as well. He is not 'just forgetful'... ARGHHH, these people!

That was me. Here, if you are looking for info into math + stuff, you can check out the link here:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt154750.html

If you are just interested in my response, you can skip to it here:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp3460862 ... t=#3460862
and parts 2 and 3 are here:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp3472825 ... t=#3472825

Although you might want to read the entire thread for context/other people's input.

But yeah, basically I was trying to explain that math isn't as important as people (school system) seems to think. And that simply giving your child a calculator, showing him how to use it, and letting him be is not a bad option by any means.

Great posts Tracker and its very true. I have made it through life and even through pharmacology in Medical Assisting school....which basically just consisted of division. I have never had to do algebra....they made it mandatory the year after I started high school so I was not forced to do it. I took something called freshman math in which we were taught basics and how to balance a check book which was useful for me. I never would have made it through algebra and I felt bad for my now 18 year old because I knew that no matter how hard you try, it just doesnt work. The problem with me is that I can be taught something and do it a few times but then I forget how to do it, my daughter is the same way. No amount of tutoring and studying helps. I can add, subtract, multiply and divide but prefer to use a calculator because it is difficult otherwise. Even when using a calculator I have to be very careful that I do not invert the numbers like 62 becomes 26. I still do this sometimes, not as much as when I was younger. I was told I had dyscalculia by the high school math teacher on my last day of school my senior year. We were helping clean and I was telling him how much I hated math so he started asking me questions and I told him all the problems I had so he said "well, you have dyscalculia".....I was like dyscalcu-wha? That was in the 80s so it is sad that anyone in education has not heard of it. They recognized it in my now 18 year old when she was seven years old.
I also recently found out that it is actually more common in Aspies than the stereotype of the mathematician. Tony Attwood is also a specialist on dyscalculia.

Also I wanted to add that I basically taught myself to visualize dice so I can add, the visual picture of dice makes more sense to me. I scored very high on the spatial part of my IQ test which pushed my score up. I guess numbers are not really a visual concept or not one that I can grasp. Not sure how that works....I can manipulate images or shapes in my head but numbers confuse me.