Poll: Are consequences effective?

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Wondering how effective others find punitive discipline.. this topic is being heavily discussed in my house right now..

Its a difficult question to answer! it all depends on the situation at the time, while it can be affective it can also be vey negative.

It is completely context specific. When a child is not in control of their actions no amount of punishment is going to prevent a behavior from occurring again during a subsequent time when he/she is not in control. In this situation, punishment or threat of punishment is more likely to make the situation worse and have NO effect on future behavior. As has been often dicussed here, it is difficult to determine sometimes what behavior is within the child's control and what behavior is not. I think this is the more poignant question. Another good question is; what can you do to prevent your child from getting to the point where they lose control?

I do not feel the poll has my complete answer, so I'm not voting in the poll but I will explain here how I feel about consequences.

I'm not a big fan of punitive discipline, but I am a fan of consequences that aren't super happy.

And it all varies by age.

My son needed and responded to very strong negative consequences when he was young and unable to understand the reasons behind my rules. We don't have a lot of rules, so if I was willing to stick a big consequence on one, it made an impression - he then "got" it that this was very important to ME, and that he was EXPECTED to comply, whether or he agreed with the rule or not. I think that is key to making a consequence work: that you keep to a minimum the number of rules to which the consequence might apply.

Now that he is older there really aren't things that warrant this. He tries to do right pretty much always, because he agrees with most of our rules. They simply are logical to him. He's grown up and learned a few things.

Other times a consequence doesn't have to do much more than remind the child that the rule is the rule and, yes, you still want the child to follow it. Or to help make clear to a child that variation C is still considered a violation of rule A, even if the child didn't think it was. Those type of consequences can be very light. They are only reminders. But those are times you have to do SOMETHING least anarchy start to take hold, so ... you do SOMETHING. That consistency (break rule / get consequence) helps the child keep a sense that there is consistent order in the world. Shoot, some kids will break rules on purpose just to check if the consistent order they seek still holds. They seem to NEED to see a consequence issued, which has been interesting to me to realize, since in my ideal world kids would never get a consequence, but I have learned that's true, kids need a sense of enforced limits.

It definitely depends on the situation. Punishment will not stop a meltdown. Might stop a temper tantrum, but not a meltdown. You can take away as much as you want; it will not stop a meltdown. They just have to wear out on their own. Punishment could work for other things though. If the child is just being bad on purpose, threatening to take something away (after explaining why they are being bad just in case it is not really on purpose) could resolve that. Depends on situation and on the child.

punishment always made me worse and felt like I was always in trouble. Then I developed this attitude that if I am going to be in trouble all the time that I might as well do something that is worth getting in trouble for...thats when my real behavior problems set in.

however I bloom with a reward system and possitive reinforcment.

Usually a chat about WHY such and such is wrong and what I can do instead in the same situation worked alot better than punishment anyway.

many of the things I did that were wrong...I just had really poor conciquencal thinking and poor impulse control. I needed a plan as to what to do in certain situations.

Punishments/consequences didn't help me be better behaved. The thing is, I didn't even see any connection between my action and my parent's reaction. I just saw it like this: my parents saw me climbing onto a bookshelf to get something from the top, so they decided to use it as an excuse to flaunt their power, by pulling me down, yelling at me about how dangerous that was, and spanking me. In my mind, I wasn't doing anything wrong: I wasn't stealing other people's property, I wasn't swearing, I wasn't hitting anyone; I just wanted to get my own board game from an inaccessible place. So when my parents punished me for trying to get my board game, I just it as their way of flaunting their power over me, because I wasn't doing anything punishment-worthy. (On the other hand, if I tore one of my parents' books while climbing or broke one of the shelves, I'd calmly take the punishment; but I didn't!)

So, I was being punished at random, for no reason. The word "dangerous" meant nothing in this case; I've climbed the shelf before, and I was fine. So saw it as just a made-up excuse to punish me. The yelling and the spanking didn't teach me not to climb the shelf. It only taught me to time the climbing when my parents can't come into the room any minute, such as when my dad is showering and my mom is on the phone. (There were no cell phones back then, so she'd be "tethered".) Then I'd turn around and lie that I used a yardstick to knock the game off the top of the bookshelf, which was actually impossible, given my height at the time and the angle of the yardstick in relation to the top of the bookshelf.

In a twist of irony, given how my parents were afraid of me falling from a 3-foot bookshelf (which I still find strange), I now take flying lessons on a small plane, where I fly at a 3,000-foot altitude. I'm pretty sure that's way more dangerous .

I feel like I'm just beating my head against the wall on all fronts at home and the added stress is just taking me down and to make it even more my OCD tendencies are bumping up quite a bit which really starts to interfere with everything I do.

I have always been a very firm believer in prevention. That is no longer possible. She doesnt break rules or misbehave as normal children do. The problem is the yelling, stomping, slamming doors, arguing, glaring, pushing at me, being rude, and having a horrible tone/ attitude. This is not 'preventable' or even 'predictable'. .. a few examples from this week would be ..

I picked her up from her dads office after work and in the car I asked her how her day was.. she slammed her book down on her lap, glared at me and hollered that she was trying to read..

the other evening she put her foot on me and I told her to get her feet off of me bc they were filthy from her playing outside all day.. (said jokingly about the dirty feet) she went into a tirade of how she only played outside for 20 min and ran down a list very rudely and loudly of all the other things she had to do that day besides playing outside and how dare I act like she just plays outside all day!! ..

I have been yelled out for standing near her.. moving my leg (my stim I suppose), walking through the room, not knowing what she is doing or saying, asking a question (it should have been obvious), poor grammar, and serving lunch at 11:56 when I said we'd eat at 12, and pretty much anything else I do. Some days are better than others and this is sporadic .. other days I have NO interactions with her that are not horribly unpleasant and I sometimes find myself just avoiding her bc she is so miserable to be around.

There just isnt any win-win anymore. If tell her she needs to get ready for bed its an explosion of how that isnt fair and why doesnt she have more time and she needs to finish X, etc etc.. If I set a timer and/or warn her that bedtime is coming she yells about how I'm stressing her out telling her how much time she has and why dont I just let her know when it's time. I mean what the hell am I supposed to do????

Dad thinks this is all a discipline problem and I need to be spanking / giving huge consequence everytime any of this happens. He feels that works bc she stops the behavior for him. Consequences have not worked for me or for her daytime caregiver who also originally thought it was just a 'spoiled only child without discipline at home thing'. But it just doesnt work.

I have tried reward systems.. gets stressed about the reward and obsesses over it to the point that she is stressed and her behavior worsens so she doesnt get the reward than she is upset for days or weeks that she did not get the reward.

spanking.. stops the behavior or gets a worse behavior in response randomly.. overall behavior is worse .. ie I have 10 incidents an evening instead of 4.

Taking priveledges or items.. gets really difficult bc she generally has 1 activity and reading. If either of those things go than she has no way of destressing and is in a constant state of panic and misery the likes of which I never want to see again..LOL If you take other things she does not care.

Time outs are difficult to get her to go (send her to her room) but will stop an episode but it does not prevent the next one.

I even spent months having her do things repeatedly until they were done right.. this never happened. If she stomped to her room I would call her back and have her walk to her room again.. this could happen 10+ times, she has repeated things up to 15 times with my having to accept that improving the volume was as good as I was going to get. The rude ugly tone could never be improved even with my giving her examples, etc.

So what am I missing?? I am just soooo frustrated. I'm frustrated with her and I'm doubly frustrated that hubby thinks I just dont discipline and that all of this is just a 'discipline issue' His suggestions are things like consequences should be a random surprise when I suggested a list of rules with set consequences. He thinks if she always needs to know what is going to happen that we should give her 'practice' and just put her in the car and tell her nothing.. that I should stop giving her choices or asking her what she wants for dinner, etc

So what the hell am I supposed to do? And in all honesty something has give bc I am getting to a point where I'm going to have to go back on medication bc of the OCD.

Oh wow, squirrelflight, you have a lot going on in your house right now and I can sure see how you are feeling overwhelmed! Have you happened to read Ross Greene's book "the Explosive Child", and the concept of collaborative problem solving? He also has another book called "Lost at School" which also has some good information. The concepts all relate to the issues children face with executive functioning, and the main premise is "children do well if they can". I believe he also has a website with lots of useful info. Anyway, it's just a thought I had when I was reading your message. I do believe in the collaborative problem solving concept and do get good buy in from my son when we use it. I think because he has input into the problem and the solution. It takes a lot of work, for sure, but it does work. Good luck!

cutiecrystalmom

I am another who didn't vote because my feelings on the matter weren't represented in any of the poll choices. It depends. It depends on the child, on the consequence (NEVER spanking), the behaviour, the environment etc. etc. etc. Kids need predictable rules and consequences, they also need respect, flexibility and understanding. Punitive consequences aren't the best way to teach things, certainly shouldn't be your primary method of dealing with unwanted behaviours, and can bring more negative than positive into your relationship with your child, but in certain circumstances, judiciously applied, they can be a useful tool. An example in my family is physical violence towards another family member. We have a "zero tolerance" policy, that we have enforced since they could understand a rule and a consequence, and it is the one thing that will bring a swift and unpleasant result with no room for negotiation and no excuses (usually significant loss of gaming time and/or allowance). We are dead serious about our home being a non-violent place (which includes no spanking), where each of us are safe and respected. That being said, there's a lot more that goes into the equation than just the consequence, we also work hard to mitigate frustrations and teach safe alternatives for expressing anger, so all of these factors work together to create an environment where choosing to strike/push/grab another family member in anger becomes an almost unthinkable choice. So yeah, my answer...punitive discipline is just one tool in a parents arsenal, and certainly not the most effective, but can be occasionally useful in tandem with the other tools.

I feel like I'm just beating my head against the wall on all fronts at home and the added stress is just taking me down and to make it even more my OCD tendencies are bumping up quite a bit which really starts to interfere with everything I do.

I have always been a very firm believer in prevention. That is no longer possible. She doesnt break rules or misbehave as normal children do. The problem is the yelling, stomping, slamming doors, arguing, glaring, pushing at me, being rude, and having a horrible tone/ attitude. This is not 'preventable' or even 'predictable'. .. a few examples from this week would be ..

I picked her up from her dads office after work and in the car I asked her how her day was.. she slammed her book down on her lap, glared at me and hollered that she was trying to read..

the other evening she put her foot on me and I told her to get her feet off of me bc they were filthy from her playing outside all day.. (said jokingly about the dirty feet) she went into a tirade of how she only played outside for 20 min and ran down a list very rudely and loudly of all the other things she had to do that day besides playing outside and how dare I act like she just plays outside all day!! ..

I have been yelled out for standing near her.. moving my leg (my stim I suppose), walking through the room, not knowing what she is doing or saying, asking a question (it should have been obvious), poor grammar, and serving lunch at 11:56 when I said we'd eat at 12, and pretty much anything else I do. Some days are better than others and this is sporadic .. other days I have NO interactions with her that are not horribly unpleasant and I sometimes find myself just avoiding her bc she is so miserable to be around.

There just isnt any win-win anymore. If tell her she needs to get ready for bed its an explosion of how that isnt fair and why doesnt she have more time and she needs to finish X, etc etc.. If I set a timer and/or warn her that bedtime is coming she yells about how I'm stressing her out telling her how much time she has and why dont I just let her know when it's time. I mean what the hell am I supposed to do????

Dad thinks this is all a discipline problem and I need to be spanking / giving huge consequence everytime any of this happens. He feels that works bc she stops the behavior for him. Consequences have not worked for me or for her daytime caregiver who also originally thought it was just a 'spoiled only child without discipline at home thing'. But it just doesnt work.

I have tried reward systems.. gets stressed about the reward and obsesses over it to the point that she is stressed and her behavior worsens so she doesnt get the reward than she is upset for days or weeks that she did not get the reward.

spanking.. stops the behavior or gets a worse behavior in response randomly.. overall behavior is worse .. ie I have 10 incidents an evening instead of 4.

Taking priveledges or items.. gets really difficult bc she generally has 1 activity and reading. If either of those things go than she has no way of destressing and is in a constant state of panic and misery the likes of which I never want to see again..LOL If you take other things she does not care.

Time outs are difficult to get her to go (send her to her room) but will stop an episode but it does not prevent the next one.

I even spent months having her do things repeatedly until they were done right.. this never happened. If she stomped to her room I would call her back and have her walk to her room again.. this could happen 10+ times, she has repeated things up to 15 times with my having to accept that improving the volume was as good as I was going to get. The rude ugly tone could never be improved even with my giving her examples, etc.

So what am I missing?? I am just soooo frustrated. I'm frustrated with her and I'm doubly frustrated that hubby thinks I just dont discipline and that all of this is just a 'discipline issue' His suggestions are things like consequences should be a random surprise when I suggested a list of rules with set consequences. He thinks if she always needs to know what is going to happen that we should give her 'practice' and just put her in the car and tell her nothing.. that I should stop giving her choices or asking her what she wants for dinner, etc

So what the hell am I supposed to do? And in all honesty something has give bc I am getting to a point where I'm going to have to go back on medication bc of the OCD.

oops.. forgot to clarify.. she homeschools outside of the home.. she is with a great mom and her 3 children from 10-3 everyday now that we are both working outside of the home..

Of course she is rude and difficult there too and it is a major stressor for her. She is always stressed it seems.. the air surrounding her annoys her some days.. LOL

This sounds an awful lot like a thread Mama_to_Grace started a couple weeks ago. It must be very difficult for both of you.
2 things that came to my mind -
1. Are there things that she likes that make her feel good? Outlets for her stress? For some kids swinging or spinning or other sensory diet activities can really help them feel better so they are not so uncomfortable in their own skin all the time. For some it is playing video games. See if you can find any activity that really reduces her stress and makes her feel GOOD. You mentioned reading and 1 other activity. Are either of these really helping her de-stress or does it seem like it is just post-poning the outward expression of her emotional state?
2. Work on one thing at a time. I think the idea you had about making a list of unacceptable behaviors and the consequence for them is a good one. Maybe start with just one thing on that list and, as alice said, give tons of praise when she has gone a day being successful with just that one thing.
Do you have any other help, therapists or docs of any kind? In the thread I mentioned above, the mom had come to the conculsion that medication was probably going to be necessary for her daughter. While that may not be a consideration for you at all, it does sound like you could benefit from some professional help if you're not already getting it.