Illusion of control and power

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I am one that believes in Determinism, that all true free choice/will is an illusion, and that all things are set in motion, as if pre-programmed to do everything we're made to do.
I like Death Metal and video games and hot girls, do I have a choice? No.
Some people like rap music and sports, do they have a choice? No.
Some people like killing people and raping people... I know this is controversial, but do they have a choice? Nope.
Some people are successful with their career, and some are homeless. Choice? Nope.
Some guys get all the girls, and some get not one girl in their whole life. Choice? Nope.
Do I want a hamburger, or pizza? That is pre-determined in a complex way.

We are all pre-programmed like instinctual animals, but with complex thought and emotion.
This is what gives the illusion of control, complex thoughts, feelings, and actions, but these are all pre-programmed, but so complex, that they escape understanding, and provide an illusion of freewill.
People will do what they have to, or what they want, whether it is good or evil, their choice was already made long before anyone on the Earth was born.
Yeah, I believe in Destiny and Fate as a result of all this.
I am Agnostic, but sometimes I lean toward thinking maybe there is a God, that is, if there was EVER a beginning or an end to all existence, if only there would be a grain of evidence of the causation of all life.
All I see in this existence is effects of some unknown cause, that's all there is in the Universe from my perspective.

Another concept I have in mind is the word magic.
Magic is simply a word used when technology that is seen is not understood.
Hundreds of years ago, would a person not consider today's technology as magic?
I believe they would consider it magic, especially if they don't understand how it works.

Is there anyone here who believes and/or understands what I say?
If you disagree, please provide for me proof of your claims.

I understand all what you said.

But I disagree. I think the cause of that is our complex thought and emotion, but not irrevalent "fate"etc.

What do you think about ancient Greek Mythology? It is about fate.

You asked me for my proof. Please give me the evidence that can prove your hypothesis

I have a doubt that maybe similar with yours in the deepest core.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt165251.html

Quantum physics has shown that natural physical reality is NOT deterministic. Since we are all material beings, at the most basic level our neurological functioning as not deterministic.

ruveyn

I believe in free will, but I also believe in inertia. We tend to do more of what we tend to do. The momentum of tons of choices and thoughts tends to set us in our ways. It is our thoughts that direct our behaviour, not our environment. Though there is an interaction between our thoughts and our environment, this interaction pertains to whether we choose to adapt to our immediate environment or adapt to what's going on in our heads. I will say though that willpower alone isn't enough to direct our behaviour. Willpower is what fights the inertia, but it is our sense of a higher purpose that keeps the momentum going. We are purpose driven in the long term and we are impulse driven in the short term (though all impulses serve a purpose, you cross the paths of impulses with conflicting purposes all the time).

Free will isn't an illusion, but the concept of willpower according to the BS notion of pop psychology underestimates the impact of mental inertia + momentum and our fear of things outside our comfort zone big time. Also, our free will is limited by our perceptions. You can't expect an anorexic to will her way out of starving if her actions aren't consistent with her self-image. You can't expect a religious person to start becoming atheist either if being atheist isn't considered part of who they are. A man's man will not be able to will himself to act outside his perception of masculinity unless his perception of that changes. Our perceptions filter as well as prioritize how we process reality.

Last edited by AceOfSpades on 26 Jun 2011, 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Okay.
Complex thought and emotion... is it something you think you have control over?
Can you control what it is that you will think or feel?
I know that I for one, have no control over what I might think or feel, I can not stop it, it will happen as a ball will fall to the ground from the sky.
If I try to change my thoughts, that is a programming of resistance, and the next thought would be thought to be under ones control, but it is also pre-programmed, and if I resist that one also, what do I have?
Another pre-programmed sensory based thought and perhaps an emotion.
How does one have a choice to do anything other than what one already wants/needs to do?
The cause can not be from our thoughts and emotions, because thoughts and emotions are a result/effect of another cause, whatever said cause might be within the five senses.
Thoughts are primarily of sound and sight.
Emotion is of touch, for it is a feeling that you get in your body.
Since there is no chance in ones life to have true control of ones thoughts and emotions due to sensory exposure.
Imagination is made from sensory information exposure, and combinations of that, such as abstract thought, are a result of sensory information.
Thoughts and emotions are made from chemicals and chemical combinations and reactions in the brain.
There's my proof.
Time is an illusion, the Earth is only spinning around the Sun in the middle of who knows what and we call it space, but technically there is no such thing as emptiness or nothingness, there is always something.

I agree. Long term habits are hard to break.

ruveyn

Scrabbling for quantum physics for free will is a mark of psychotic desperation for a dream that not only is a fantasy, it is one that has no use at all. If we cannot plan our actions to accommodate our desires based on our experience we really don't know what the hell we are doing. Not only is free will not possible, it is not in the least desirable.

I think we have free will but not all of us have as many favorable paths or choices.

Perhaps we could be said to have a kind of Destiny path we are set out on but we can still make some choices. If we have a Destiny it is flexible with many paths and again some people seem to have more easy paths available then others. Either from Fate or dumb luck.

I figure as we are a product of our DNA and environmental and perhaps some unique spiritual quality we don't fully understand. These certain things do initially define us and set us on a very general path. For example someone could seemed Destined to be a Healer but that includes many options such as being a Doctor, Corpsman, Veterinarian, or Missionary. Another person might seem inherentely Athletic but of course within that there are many choices.

So I guess I would say we don't get to choose our talents but can decide how they are expressed and developed in our lives.

I never wrote the words "free will". I point out that at a very fundamental level our physical actions are not deterministic. Non deterministic actions have a random component describable by probability distributions and frequency. This is not equivalent to free will. Free will is a kind of determinism. What is implied is that something inside the person determines what he will do, not accidental conditions outside his consciousness. I don't buy free will for an instant.

ruveyn

ruveyn

Understood.

I rise to a point of information...

A hypothesis is a belief that is testable. If the belief can not be tested, then it can not be stated as a hypothesis ...

"If A and B, then we can expect C" is a typical hypothetical argument in "If ... Then" format.

Is the belief of determinism testable?

"If determinism rules, then ...". What completes the sentence?

For that matter, how would you complete the sentence "If non-determinism rules, then ... "?

a fatalist thinks his actions are determined externally and strictly. A free will type believes he himself determines his actions strictly or largely. I believe that we are physical processes interacting with the world and control is not exclusively internal nor external. And there are elements of chance at work.

ruveyn

That and our actions geared towards breaking our habits must be consistent with our self-image, so we must put effort towards changing our self-image first and then towards changing out habits which adds insult to injury. Speaking of self-image, I notice my posts seem to have a girlier tone after I changed my avatar. There's no way I can will myself to act like an internet tough guy now but the door has been opened for me to act like a contrarian b***h lol.

Another thing I don't believe.
I don't believe in Randomness.
Nor do I believe in Chance.

For example, when you throw the dice, the outcome is based on how you threw the dice with your hand with what position the dice were in inside your hand.
When at a slot machine, and you pull the lever or push the button, your fate of winning is determined by the preset position that the machine was set at, and how it is programmed to spin.
When playing cards, such as poker or blackjack, you are dealt card hands from a deck that is shuffled, and these are not truly random, but based on how the hand shuffled and distributed the cards.

When you get a decent card combination that makes you feel 'confident' and decide to make a bet with them, or instead hold your cards and fold due to 'uncertainty and doubt', is a good example of a test of free will. Your choices are determined by your emotions, and your thoughts, and impulse reactions. These are things that cannot truly be controlled beyond what you want/need. All things that are material based, and all things that are material are already there and have already been completed, thus meaning that your choice has been made before you even knew about it, Determinism.

Luck, Chance, and Randomness seem like non-sense to me, it doesn't make sense, and it is abstract thinking due to lack of knowledge of the laws of the World, I believe.

You really should look i bit into quantum theory and the nature of radioactive decay. In general in the macrocosm chance is a minor factor but it cannot be denied.