Exhibiting the behaviours of Sir Isaac Newton?

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JayCat
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19 Aug 2011, 9:02 am

Is it possible to exhibit behaviours of Sir Isaac Newton and not be on the autistic spectrum?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2988647.stm

Hmm... Or has the definition been expanded to include a broader group of people? Skipping the controversy... Can anyone think of an example where someone like that would not be on the autistic spectrum?



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19 Aug 2011, 10:33 am

JayCat wrote:
Is it possible to exhibit behaviours of Sir Isaac Newton and not be on the autistic spectrum?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2988647.stm

Hmm... Or has the definition been expanded to include a broader group of people? Skipping the controversy... Can anyone think of an example where someone like that would not be on the autistic spectrum?


Quote:
He hardly spoke, was so engrossed in his work that he often forgot to eat and was lukewarm or bad-tempered with the few friends he had.

If no one turned up to his lectures he gave them anyway talking to an empty room. At the age of 50, he had a nervous breakdown brought on by depression and paranoia.


Many of this symptoms could also appear in schizoid or schyzotypal personality disorders; however, I think that the part of the lectures is tipically autistic (a schizo-something will probably use this time to think, instead of "giving" a lecture to non-existant pupils).



claudia
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19 Aug 2011, 1:21 pm

Repeating sentences is an autistic trait, NTs don't do this. But it isn't enough to know if he was autistic. It requires much more than this...



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19 Aug 2011, 1:41 pm

Did you even read the rest of the article? They pointed out that it's possible that he might not have been autistic.


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19 Aug 2011, 4:33 pm

A problem in this discussions is that they are largely circular - because autism is defined by the behaviors (instead of by the cause of the behaviors), does not make much sense to discuss if a non-autistic can have autistic behaviors



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19 Aug 2011, 5:06 pm

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19 Aug 2011, 5:41 pm

Quote:
"Impatience with the intellectual slowness of others, narcissism and passion for one's mission in life might combine to make such individuals isolative and difficult."


It could be this.


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JayCat
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19 Aug 2011, 9:12 pm

Um... I never mentioned explicitly that Newton was autistic.

I am trying to find someone or a type of person who can exhibit the behaviours and not be autistic. After a long night awake I can now provide two examples:
Suicidal tibetan monks are the first thing that come to my mind. Asylum Seekers who starve themselves with the goal to reach a country. There are probably more...

The article mentions Einstein having a good sense of humour.
From my own experience: You can pick up on humour in the voice and from knowing what is funny; laughing soon after, and still not understand the non-verbal cues. Furthermore, if it is on paper (electronic) and you understand it; that can be humour. It all depends on the context...

Define: Funny
1. comical: causing amusement, especially enough to provoke laughter
2. strange: odd or perplexing
3. unconventional: out of the ordinary in a quaint or comical way
4. unwell: nauseated, faint, or otherwise slightly ill (informal)
5. tricky: slyly deceitful and dishonest (informal)
Too confusing eh?

An aspie can have humour.
Exhibit:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf171614-0-15.html
Or maybe humour to me, is something that grabs my attention...
I do not believe many people use the same rigid definitions in a dictionary.

On the topic of Einstein's humour.
http://workinghumor.com/quotes/albert_einstein.shtml
These do seem somewhat humourous.
I can understand them all to some extent and could probably write a few of my own.

Furthermore, have a look at how broad the DSM IV definition is, http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html
So, why does the BBC article argue that Einstein is not? The big problem I have with the medical profession is that there is no certainty... I am inclined not to think of mental differences as a label but rather, "okay, I have these problems, "insert monologue", help me to manage them".

The next thing I will try to analyse is whether Einstein and Newton required help managing their lives. Nevertheless, this is all in vain.

Ah bleh, Forget it. I give up.



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20 Aug 2011, 11:19 am

JayCat wrote:
Furthermore, have a look at how broad the DSM IV definition is, http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html
So, why does the BBC article argue that Einstein is not.

Quote:

I) Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(A) marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(B) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(C) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(D) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(A) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
(B) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
(C) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
(D) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects


(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia."


About Einstein:

I A - never heard anything about that
I B - yes (at least as a child)
I C - perhaps
I B - yes (at least as a child)
II A - perhaps (a problem with that is to define exactly when an interest is "stereotyped and restricted"; I don't know enough of Einstein's life to know if he was obsessed with a narrow topic or if he was more of the generalist type*)
II B/C/D - perhaps, but heard anything about that
III - apparently not
IV - speech delay; in this point, Einstein could be classical autistic or PDD/NOS, but not Aspie
V - who knows?

* the same about Newton, btw (if anything, the case for "restricted interests" is more weak in Newton: after all, is spite of is main interest being probably mysticism/end-of-world/occultism, he was also interested in other issues, like some sciences)



claudia
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20 Aug 2011, 12:50 pm

Delirium wrote:
Did you even read the rest of the article? They pointed out that it's possible that he might not have been autistic.

I think he was autistic and likely not the AS but the HFA type. This is based on information I have but we should know more to be sure he was on the spectrum.
His intelligence was so extraordinary that I think he was different from everyone else.