Shouldn't Greece Stop Rioting (At least for now)

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Sampson3434
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19 Oct 2011, 10:43 pm

Okay, I am no expert on Greek Culture or economics but an extremely simplistic equation / timeline is forming in my mind.

1. After several decades of heavy social spending and very little attention to paying down the debt, Greece finds itself in a debt crisis, some-how effecting the rest of the European Union.

2. The European Union panics and creates a policy where it will give billions of Euros if Greece begins Austerity measures. (150 billion Euros in one count)

3. Greece claims it will find itself in bankruptcy in over little than a year, and is using the European Union's loads (or Austerity award money or whatever mumbo jumbo) to maintain its budget including paying government wages. They begin Austerity measures.

4. The population starts a massive series of (at first) peaceful protests. Anarchists show up and long held tensions spark beginning riots.

5. Greece is practically beginning for money and is stating very clearly it is running out of money.

6. Protestors show no sign of listening and protesting all Austerity measures.

So... if the protestors succeed, then what happens? The European Union isn't going to continue holding up Greece, Greece remains in debt, and all attempts at reducing debt are gone. How does the situation Improve? How do the protestors keep their jobs?

This is very simplistic so I am pretty sure I am missing part of the picture. So any information that might help explain (or debunk) this would be welcom.



blauSamstag
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19 Oct 2011, 10:49 pm

They are protesting because the gravy train is ending. They are rational people reacting to external stimulus.

The EU is giving them long-term loans so they can pay their short-term loans.

If greece goes bankrupt, that means that Germany (and the rest of the EU) never gets paid back.

If greece has several bad years and slowly pulls out of it, that means that Germany (and the rest of the EU) eventually gets paid back. Which is better than never.



91
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19 Oct 2011, 10:58 pm

Greek student protests were instrumental in bringing down the Military Junta and establishing the Third Hellenic Republic. As a result student protest has been highly esteemed and conferred a certain legitimacy. It is all but a part of the right of passage.


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19 Oct 2011, 11:07 pm

Sampson3434 wrote:
Okay, I am no expert .


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19 Oct 2011, 11:10 pm

Let them riot. I'm tired of hearing Europeans complain that we Americans are rude, arrogant, violent, loud, and generally unruly. If Greece falls, it will be a neener-neener moment for me.



blauSamstag
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19 Oct 2011, 11:19 pm

91 wrote:
Greek student protests were instrumental in bringing down the Military Junta and establishing the Third Hellenic Republic. As a result student protest has been highly esteemed and conferred a certain legitimacy. It is all but a part of the right of passage.


I'm often disappointed that we don't have this in the USA.

My little sister spent a few semesters abroad in France, where she says that it turns out that protesting is like voting. Except everybody does it.



91
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19 Oct 2011, 11:38 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
91 wrote:
Greek student protests were instrumental in bringing down the Military Junta and establishing the Third Hellenic Republic. As a result student protest has been highly esteemed and conferred a certain legitimacy. It is all but a part of the right of passage.


I'm often disappointed that we don't have this in the USA.

My little sister spent a few semesters abroad in France, where she says that it turns out that protesting is like voting. Except everybody does it.


There is a time and place for public protest. At present in Greece, the past is at odds with the future. Even students who have been raised to think protest solves national problems are out of touch. Now the people are actively undermining their own recovery. Every time these anarchists burn something, it undermines international confidence in Greece. Whereas if the Japanese were in this position, they would have a cup of concrete and fix the problem.


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ruveyn
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19 Oct 2011, 11:40 pm

91 wrote:
Whereas if the Japanese were in this position, they would have a cup of concrete and fix the problem.


Please explain this. Thank you.

ruveyn



91
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20 Oct 2011, 12:08 am

ruveyn wrote:
91 wrote:
Whereas if the Japanese were in this position, they would have a cup of concrete and fix the problem.


Please explain this. Thank you.

ruveyn


Japanese public debt is higher than Greece in both absolute terms and as a percentage of GDP. Per capita it's debt is twice as high as the United States. Yet they have had next to no protests and a higher level of international confidence in their ability to recover. Japan also has a much higher credit rating than Greece. While both states have their respective virtues, the Japanese are much better at 'keep calm and carry on'.


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blauSamstag
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20 Oct 2011, 12:15 am

91 wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
91 wrote:
Greek student protests were instrumental in bringing down the Military Junta and establishing the Third Hellenic Republic. As a result student protest has been highly esteemed and conferred a certain legitimacy. It is all but a part of the right of passage.


I'm often disappointed that we don't have this in the USA.

My little sister spent a few semesters abroad in France, where she says that it turns out that protesting is like voting. Except everybody does it.


There is a time and place for public protest. At present in Greece, the past is at odds with the future. Even students who have been raised to think protest solves national problems are out of touch. Now the people are actively undermining their own recovery. Every time these anarchists burn something, it undermines international confidence in Greece. Whereas if the Japanese were in this position, they would have a cup of concrete and fix the problem.


I think the grecian working class has cause to protest, but they should be protesting the rampant corruption that allowed things to get this bad.

It is not going to be so easy to be a greek citizen in the future as it was in the past. I completely understand being upset about that.

They have just not channeled their anger anywhere productive.



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20 Oct 2011, 12:19 am

blauSamstag wrote:
I think the grecian working class has cause to protest, but they should be protesting the rampant corruption that allowed things to get this bad.

It is not going to be so easy to be a greek citizen in the future as it was in the past. I completely understand being upset about that.

They have just not channeled their anger anywhere productive.


I agree with what you are saying. But considering that the underground economy of Greece is around 25% of GDP, this is far too widespread for any class to escape a share of the blame. Those Greeks who were not involved, certainly have cause for protest.


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21 Oct 2011, 1:25 am

91 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
91 wrote:
Whereas if the Japanese were in this position, they would have a cup of concrete and fix the problem.


Please explain this. Thank you.

ruveyn


Japanese public debt is higher than Greece in both absolute terms and as a percentage of GDP. Per capita it's debt is twice as high as the United States. Yet they have had next to no protests and a higher level of international confidence in their ability to recover. Japan also has a much higher credit rating than Greece. While both states have their respective virtues, the Japanese are much better at 'keep calm and carry on'.


The Japanese are also well known for having an excellent work ethic, which is something that apparently Greece isn't known for.



ruveyn
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21 Oct 2011, 7:59 am

Inuyasha wrote:

The Japanese are also well known for having an excellent work ethic, which is something that apparently Greece isn't known for.


The great Greek philosopher Socrates, was a major free-loader in Athens (in his day).

ruveyn