Is Judaism a religion AND an ethnicity?

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16 Nov 2011, 9:24 pm

is there such thing as a "Jewish Gene"?

what about atheists who left the Jewish faith? can they ever truly be rid of it?

if yes, then are converts real Jews? is the "Jewish Gene" required to be a Jew?

what about other religions????

pandabear
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16 Nov 2011, 9:33 pm

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

is there such thing as a "Jewish Gene"?

At least metaphorically, all Jews are descendents of Sarai.

Quote:

what about atheists who left the Jewish faith? can they ever truly be rid of it?

As I understand it, the only way they can truly rid themselves of Jewish identity is to convert to Christianity.

Quote:

if yes, then are converts real Jews? is the "Jewish Gene" required to be a Jew?

I think that converts are held to a higher standard of Jewishness, if they wish to remain considered a part of the Jewish people.

Quote:

what about other religions????

Judaism is centered around the "chosen people." Other religions are different.

ruveyn
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16 Nov 2011, 10:00 pm

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

In order of your questions, the answers:

No. There are Jews of every biological race that exists on the planet.
A Jew who becomes less observant still grows up with a Jewish sensibility. If a kid is brought up Jewish he can never think like a Gentile.
Converts are "real" Jews. In fact it is a sin to mock a convert on the grounds that he is a convert.
What about other religions. According to the Mishnah Torah all the righteous of the earth have a part in the World to Come. What is being Righteous? Keeping the seven Noachic Laws.

ruveyn

JakobVirgil
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16 Nov 2011, 10:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

are believers in the trinity in violation of the first law?
are Atheists?

_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/

phil777
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17 Nov 2011, 12:00 am

Lol, ethnicity. =.= Judaism sounds more to me like an exclusive totemic (read: as having a common patrilinear ancestor) religious group than having acute genetic similarities...

Then you have to consider African jews. :roll:

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17 Nov 2011, 12:23 am

I would say it can be both, but is not necessarily both because of the facts that ruveyn pointed out.

blauSamstag
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17 Nov 2011, 12:44 am

phil777 wrote:

It's just a question of genetic diversity over time.

There were multiple groups at the time of the jewish diaspora and they branched off in their own directions genetically as well as geographically.

Cyanide
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17 Nov 2011, 1:30 am

Seeing as the original Jews were essentially breakaway Arabs who made their own racist religion, I'd say they qualify as an ethnic group.

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17 Nov 2011, 1:35 am

ruveyn wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

Jews can never think like Gentiles? I'm sorry, but where did that come from?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Inuyasha
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17 Nov 2011, 1:44 am

Cyanide wrote:

Seeing as the original Jews were essentially breakaway Arabs who made their own racist religion, I'd say they qualify as an ethnic group.

How is taking steps to prevent someone running in with a bomb strapped to their chest, and blowing themselves up in a marketplace, racist?

pandabear
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17 Nov 2011, 8:43 am

Inuyasha wrote:

Cyanide wrote:

Seeing as the original Jews were essentially breakaway Arabs who made their own racist religion, I'd say they qualify as an ethnic group.

How is taking steps to prevent someone running in with a bomb strapped to their chest, and blowing themselves up in a marketplace, racist?

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordp ... -in-china/

ruveyn
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17 Nov 2011, 8:56 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Jews can never think like Gentiles? I'm sorry, but where did that come from?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The upbringing. Jews can have guilt, but they do not accept Original Sin. Not a bit of it.

Think of the Pauline works vs faith struggle. Jews are committed to works, i.e. keeping the commandments. Faith is not a primary issue. Or more precisely faith and deeds cannot be disentangled. If one hast faith he acts in accordance with it. If one acts, he acts based on his basic beliefs and expectations. They cannot be taken apart as Paul suggest. In fact James Christ, Jesus' brother made this very point in his epistle.

ruveyn

Last edited by ruveyn on 17 Nov 2011, 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

phil777
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17 Nov 2011, 9:23 am

Wait, so if Jews do not think like Gentiles, and Asperger people don't either, does that make a Jewish Asperger not able to think in the same way a Jew would nor would a Gentile? :p So basically, you get pretty lonely unless you associate with either group, no?

(And this is where it gets interesting waiting for Ruveyn or other jewish Aspies to speak up)

Kraichgauer
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17 Nov 2011, 12:57 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Jews can never think like Gentiles? I'm sorry, but where did that come from?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Not every Gentile is a Christian, and thus never believed in original sin.
On top of that, plenty of Christians agree that you can't have true faith without works. Luther once observed, "by faith alone, but faith is never alone," meaning that faith has to be in action to be real. Calvin had taught the same thing.
What I believe you're referring to is what Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Lutheran minister executed for his part in the plot against Hitler, had condemned as "cheap grace." That is, the idea that good works and sacrifice are no longer regarded as the human response to God's love by believers.
And yes, I fully concede I'm guilty of being a practitioner of "cheap grace" more often than not, though I'm trying.
I don't know if that makes us seem any less alien to you. And in all fairness, Jews have asked us to see you not as alien, but as fellow human beings.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

ruveyn
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17 Nov 2011, 1:31 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

I don't know if that makes us seem any less alien to you. And in all fairness, Jews have asked us to see you not as alien, but as fellow human beings.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Of course we are all human beings together, but you guys have a strange religion. Believing in three gods and claiming to be monotheists.

By the way, if grace is grace then it must be unconditional, otherwise it is something obtained by something else. That is another Christians strangeness.

ruveyn

Kraichgauer
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17 Nov 2011, 2:09 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I don't know if that makes us seem any less alien to you. And in all fairness, Jews have asked us to see you not as alien, but as fellow human beings.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

You're trying to see God in human terms. A supreme being can have three different facets, each with its own personality, and yet is at the same time one. We Christians don't even try to understand it.
And yes, grace is unconditional, and it definitely isn't given to reward works. But real grace - and the faith that accompanies it - will naturally produce good works, as the believer is moved by the spirit.
At least that's the theology of my brand of Christianity. Other Christians may take exception to that.
And yes, there is a strangeness to Christianity - we admit we are unlike anything before or after us.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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