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Mdyar
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01 Feb 2012, 3:33 pm

I've been on an Apollo kick recently, and was wondering if any here know how these suits worked as far as heating and cooling.

I couldn't find an in depth article on how the backpacks exchanged heat exactly. I know the Apollo suits used liquid cooling in a body wrap to cool from solar exposure, but where was the heat transferred to on the lunar surface?

Being in a vacuum, it becomes obvious that the heat exchange was with something cooler in those backpacks, and it had to shed or drop the heat outside or store it in some way.

Thoughts?



Dilbert
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01 Feb 2012, 4:29 pm

Heat conduction between the suit and the liquid. Then thermal radiation from the liquid out to space.

Google for conduction, convection and thermal radiation.

I don't know the specifics of the Apollo backpack. It'd be an interesting read. I'm guessing it contained a pump to circulate the liquid through the suit, and a heat exchanger to radiate the heat out into space.



Samanamsonite
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01 Feb 2012, 6:27 pm

dilbert's right conduction isnt the only way to transmit thermal energy. it would be through radiation


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Mdyar
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01 Feb 2012, 8:00 pm

The trick here is there is not an efficient medium to kick the heat out to empty space. There is poor surface contact with fluid coils exposed to space by a non- atmosphere/vacuum-- in time it would radiate outwards, but I'd think that to be too slow.

I suppose *200 ambient wouldn't matter if those coils were out of direct sunlight shielded inside by the exterior of the backpack. It could be below zero in there away from the radiant heat. But there is still the problem of a quick heat conduction/ radiating outward in dealing with a vacuum.

If you look at a thermos bottle, and by putting boiling water in there, the exterior is cool to the touch due to the vacuum.

The heat moves out very slowly due to a lack in a conductive surface.



Last edited by Mdyar on 02 Feb 2012, 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

gadge
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01 Feb 2012, 8:27 pm

hope this explains it,
its like super evaporation. by going from a liquid to a gas,
its one of the things that makes race cars N2O(nitrous oxide injection) systems their power. the cooling effect of going from a liquid to a gas. the nitrogen is an inert gas and is used as just a cooling agent. the extra oxygen molecule is used to burn more fuel that is also added at the same time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_(chemistry)

the space suits use a heat sink where the liquid oxygen is added to the suit. The suits also have a water vapor extraction system to prevent the interior from getting damp and fogging up the interior of the visor. The water is vented out into space<don't quote me on that.

Also not sure if they use CO2 scrubbers or an extraction system.......idk?


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Mdyar
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02 Feb 2012, 1:00 am

Quote:
In an independent space suit, the heat is ultimately transferred to a thin sheet of ice (formed by a separate feed water source). Due to the extremely low pressure in space, the heated ice sublimates directly to water vapor, which is then vented away from the suit.

Because the space environment is essentially a vacuum, heat cannot be lost through heat convection, and can only be directly dissipated through thermal radiation, a much slower process. Thus, even though the environment of space can be extremely cold, excessive heat build-up is inevitable. Without an LCVG, there would be no means by which to expel this heat, and it would affect not only EVA performance, but the health of the suit occupant as well. The LCVG used with the Apollo/Skylab A7L suit could remove heat at a rate of approximately 586 watts.[1]


OK, the clue is in the first paragraph.

So the ice is outside the suit and is probably in the backpack, (as it is affected by vacuum and vented).

Interesting.

I was toying with idea of using water in that backpack, and it boiling naturally in a vacuum would draw the heat out of a metal tube heat exchanger, with the astronaut's suit water flowing through the inside core, while water outside the core drew heat away as water boiled off. Sort of an aquarium in the backpack , but it was control vented slowly so the water wouldn't violently boil off.

I discarded it and thought on the lines of Gadge in a more high tech approach. Simple proved effective.


Neil had 45- 50 seconds of fuel left for the descent landing. He took manual control when the guidance computer was programmed to land in a "unsafe" rock strewn zone, and moved onwards in the Eagle.

The 1969 guidance computer had a clock speed of 2 megahertz, and this might be interesting to those in this forum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer



Last edited by Mdyar on 03 Feb 2012, 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dilbert
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02 Feb 2012, 3:30 am

Yep. The fuel gauge read empty. Completely empty. A young engineer in mission control, in Gene Kranz's group, which just so happened to have been on duty during the landing, he realized there was still some fuel remaining and became proficient in calculating the exact fuel remaining in the LEM during the many simulations prior to the mission. So when it became apparent that Neil was using a lot of fuel by landing way way long, the engineer grabbed his slide rule and pen and paper and did some calculations and kept calling out the fuel remaining. You can hear this on the comm channels.... someone calling out '60 seconds'. A remarkable story. Apollo 11 came >< that close to running out of fuel and crashing.

And there was that whole drama with 1202 program alarm. Neil almost aborted the mission! That error was not simulated in training and no one knew what to do. And again a young engineer (Steven Bales) at mission control knew exactly what it was. It was harmless.



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02 Feb 2012, 4:37 pm

I remember watching the moon landing and "one small step......." on TV when it was LIVE.

My mom called me to the living room and said "watch this and don't ever forget it" Well I haven't forgotten...

In the moon landing the issue wasn't the risk of crashing, The real problem was not enough fuel to leave the moon and regain orbit to dock with the command module They would of been stranded.


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Dilbert
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02 Feb 2012, 6:01 pm

The descent and the ascent engines on the LM were two completely different engines. Two different sources of fuel. LM left their descent engine (and the depleted descent fuel tank) on the surface, along with the landing struts. The descent module was basically used as a launch ramp for the ascent from the moon. Only the top part of the LM blasted off from the moon. How much fuel they used on descent played no part in the ascent.



Mdyar
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03 Feb 2012, 1:38 am

It's interesting to see this thread going.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOdzhQS_MMw[/youtube]
In '72.

The speech if Apollo 11/ LM stranded the men:

Quote:
According to the plan, Bruns added, Nixon would have called the wives of the Apollo 11 astronauts to express his condolences and then give the following speech:

"Fate has ordained that the men who went to the moon to explore in peace will stay on the moon to rest in peace. These brave men, Neil Armstrong and Edwin Aldrin, know that there is no hope for their recovery. But they also know that there is hope for mankind in their sacrifice.

"These two men are laying down their lives in mankind's most noble goal: the search for truth and understanding. They will be mourned by their families and friends; they will be mourned by their nation; they will be mourned by the people of the world; they will be mourned by a Mother Earth that dared send two of her sons into the unknown.

"In their exploration, they stirred the people of the world to feel as one; in their sacrifice, they bind more tightly the brotherhood of man. In ancient days, men looked at stars and saw their heroes in the constellations. In modern times, we do much the same, but our heroes are epic men of flesh and blood.

"Others will follow, and surely find their way home. Man's search will not be denied. But these men were the first, and they will remain the foremost in our hearts.

"For every human being who looks up at the moon in the nights to come will know that there is some corner of another world that is forever mankind."