Autism vs. NVLD

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Ok, some people are trying to say that AS and NVLD are the same things, but many of the trends with NVLD are the opposite of autism as a whole. I personally think the issue is that NVLD in many cases may be diagnosed as AS due to the ambiguity of the definition of AS and the social issues associated with NVLD. NVLD is probably less likely to be diagnosed as AD due to the more general commication issues associated wit autism. Anyone else have any opinions on this?

What on earth is NLVD

Nonverbal learning disorder, look it up

I think I may have become a threadstopper again. Is it because my english isn't good enough or is there some other reason?
Well, it doesn't bother me. I will continue my english lesson regardless of the fact if I get an answer or not.

Hmmmm maybe it's the comments I made about bald men.
Here is a small word of advise: don't visit an asperger forum if you don't like brutal honesty.

Last edited by pokerface on 09 Mar 2012, 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well unless you have been on the forum for awhile or know someone diagnosed with it it's unlikely that you would know what it is.

Thanks to your explanation I know what NLVD is now.
The thing is that most people with asperger don't have learning disorders at all.

I dont know enough to make a generalisation, however if its any use to you I can say I have problems with both verbal and nonverbal communication, though my nonverbal problems are worse - and I have good math and spacial skills, although I have not been officially dxed so I dont know exactly where on the spectrum I would be. One thing that struck me with NVLD is the emphasis that verbal skills are strong, do most people with AS have strong verbal skills?

Nope!

I can see how NVLD can be diagnosed as AS by meeting 2 of 4 social deficits criteria and 1 of 4 restricted and repetitive behaviors criteria. The social deficits criteria can be easily met with NVLD, and the special interests criterion can be easily met by anyone, including NTs. Social deficits and special interests twogether describe many introverted intelligent NT children and adults.

I think that's extremely likely. When you think about the prevalence of these two things and then consider that many people doing the diagnoses probably only see a couple of cases a year in the category of ASD, can you blame them? On the surface they are relatively easy to mix up unless said shrink has extensive experience in the field of ASD, which for most is not the case.

I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of the members on here fit that category, in fact. Any particular reason why you wanted to discuss this? If it's just curiosity then ta.

I've seen NVLD mentioned around here a lot, but I'd never looked it up before until right now. There are definite similarities between it and AS, and I could see how many people with AS would also have NVLD.

One thing that wasn't ultra-clear to me (I looked on Wikipedia) was if NVLD means needing verbal instruction, rather than visual instruction? That's what I always imagined it meant. If that's the case, then I relate to almost all of the description of NVLD, except for that. I'd say I'm more a visual learner than a verbal one, although I do have some verbal learning strengths as well. I guess I'm best when the two are paired.

For instance, when I was watching Jeopardy the other day, my brother was playing ringtones on his phone very loudly, and I couldn't hear the questions being read, but I also couldn't seem to read the words, either, with the conflicting sounds. Had it been quiet, I could have read the question just fine. However, if I just heard the question and didn't have it in front of me, I would have trouble figuring out the answer...it's like I can't hold the question in my head at the same time I'm trying to process the answer without a visual reminder of the question.

no it's(just like aspergers) a development disorder, as in you don't develop the same as others. and they are both ambigus.
some say asperger's, nld(diagnosis) is pointless to say cus nld is just asperger's on the lower end of the spectrum

I decided to take you all up on this topic since I know a thing or two about the learning impairment and executive dysfunction, having researched it heavily in order to get evaluated appropriately.

Non-verbal learning disability is an interesting thing because often people are misdiagnosed with some of the more visible, behaviour diagnoses: ADD-Inattentive type(see source) or something AS related. I think one considerable difference is that NV-LD can be acquired during ones lifetime, not merely developmental in nature.

I was initially diagnosed with Non-verbal learning disorder when I went in for a Weschler Adult Intelligence battery with speculation that I may have ADD-Inattentive, associated with more 'spacing out' behaviours, with executive functioning impairments. According to what I researched they all share a similar etiology as far as areas of the brain affected/impaired.

I think NV-LD is the learning impairment most commonly associated with AS, not all of us are as Temple Grandin calls them, google-for-images thinkers, and if we are this kind of thinking causes us strain. NV-LD is commonly associated with dysfunction in the right-hemisphere of the brain, too. (speaking broadly here).

To receive this diagnosis you need to have a 20 point discrepancy in your Weschler Adult Intelligence Scales between your perceptual IQ and your verbal IQ, that's it. So as you can see it is very much a spectrum, just like autism can be, and it doesn't just affect people with autism, but can be correlated with trauma to certain parts in the brain, or with other neurological impairments related to dysexecutive functioning. People with NV-LD often have to talk themselves through a problem that involves spatial reasoning, at least for me. I sometimes remember visual/spatial data by using altering tones instead of measuring in my head and remember proportion for example. It also means that I can use verbal mnemonics effectively to remember visual data, because having a higher verbal aptitude usually means you are covering for an inherent lack of processing power in another region of the brain, under-connectivity; rote information learning is a definite benefit, because we're typically hyperlexic.

The divergence I am lead to believe based on my research, is when it comes down to the affective area of socializations and field of emotions. Even though persons with NV-LD has difficulty with facial expressions, non-verbal cues, etc. doesn't mean that they aren't able to achieve cognitive empathy on par with a majority of the population. While they are inept at expressing emotions and recognizing them (non-verbally), they are still there, as well as the full range of emotion one would expect from a typical individual:

In this way I am led to believe that having Alexthymia (which I have as a personality trait) would disqualify the person from having ASD, being able to understand one's own emotions and internal states of being. People with ASD I would think also have, qualitatively speaking, a more complex impairment when it comes to initiating and/or experiencing normalcy in social relationships due to a more 'obvious emotional flatness' and lower cognition potential when it comes to intellectualizing and intuitively grasping emotional concepts, despite NVLD having non-verbal impairment, or being literalists in socializing.


AS has been conceptualized as NVLD, but there are behaviours associated with ASD that are not related to NVLD. Another example of this difference in etiology is within the realm of special interests:


If you want to learn more about NV-Ld Rourke is the pre-eminent scholar on the topic since he has done most of the research, so far as I know:
http://www.nld-bprourke.ca/

I think the most pertinent divide right now as far as the autistic spectrum goes is the difference between HFA and AS as it relates to NV-LD. People with AS are more likely to have NV-LD. I think this says something profound on how we view these two often similar diagnoses, which I think will take a great deal of time to differentiate, because of the current DSM-V. People think that there is no difference between the two and they merely diverge at language acquisition. It goes a lot further than that. Like I said earlier AS can be conceptualized under the guise of NV-LD and many people diagnosed with AS also show signs of NV-LD impairments, but also have the behaviour components not associated with classic NV-LD.

Non-verbal learning impairment means that individuals with AS are less likely to excel in fields requiring perceptual/spatial reasoning skills; Temple Grandin conceptualizes these as pattern and verbal thinkers. If you have a lower verbal I.Q than perceptual I.Q by 20 points, based on the inverse of the prerequisites for NV-LD (which is having higher verbal reasoning than perceptual/visual reasoning), you probably share more similarities with HFA and subsequently a harder time expressing your thoughts verbally. It is quite a curveball, but another difference with NV-LD is that it can be acquired during the course of one's lifetime, related to trauma to the right-hemisphere, similarly to how sometimes people inherit face blindness after head-trauma.
See source: Relationships between HFA,AS,NV-LD

I wasn't able to cite all my sources but I am diagnosed with AS, previously diagnosed with NOS-LD (nonverbal learning disorder). AS describes my situation better because of how the symptoms impair my day-to-day functioning in work employ, school, and relationships - not just schooling/learning/non-verbal.

SO as per the original poster my opinion of this is (and sorry for the length){TL;DR}
I was able to get a correct diagnosis because of NV-LD, when I could have been diagnosed with ADD-Inattentive just as well, because exeuctive dysfunction was the reason I went in for testing to begin with. After researching NV-LD I read the relationship with autism and went in for further evaluation under a specialist. I think like I said earlier in my text that from what I've read they are conceptually equal, but in terms of behaviour unmistakable from one another. I don't think having a diagnosis of AS supercedes all of NV-LD because there are definite learning impairments that NV-LD makes sense of that AS does not. A lot of the difficulties a person with AS deals with aside from social problems can be better illustrated with nonverbal learning as a starting point for understanding associated impairments that come along with the diagnosis of AS. I do not think that people with high-functioning autism as it stands have as much preponderance for having this specific learning disability. I think the obvious strength of an AS's verbal skills accentuate the obvious difference of diagnosis between the two. This strength coicides to the deficits in spatial/visual thinking styles, which many HFA's excel at (math for example or engineering), better working memory. There is a definite difference between HFA and AS even though in the end they turn out similarly socially. I see many people here who struggle with math, which confuses them because apparently society thinks we are all engineering minds. I see people with AS more as systematic thinkers.

Yep.

NVLD itself is a very specific set of traits.

That said though, there can be an overlap. Some people with the skills associated with NVLD may also have social deficits that warrant an AS diagnosis. Because doctors don't want to expand the defintion of autism NVLD doesn't quite fit but I do understand why they like to keep the labels tidy.

I would say I am somehow still NT with traits of both NVLD and AS but the already diagnosed ADHD could have a lot to do with it.

Also as I'm getting older I'm starting to have less of the weaknesses described in NVLD, who knows what that means.

It's not easy to find a lot of accurate information about NVLD because the label has become so mucked up, also diagnosed along with autism frequently which makes it more confusing.

But, the impression I get of very "classic" NVLD is a person with a slight degree of social deficits who has no trouble with tone or reading facial expressions, they also specifically mention no impairment with empathy but go on to say that the person may have trouble navigating social situations.

They also say the NVLDer may be eccentric so it's easy to see why the two are so often confused, but who knows how much of that eccentricity they describe is due to undiagnosed with a skill set more like NVLD.

And I as far as I can tell it includes impairments in most areas that aren't verbal (hence NVLD) but I could be wrong.) These people are usually more creative but have excellent rote memory like the Aspies does. Poor spatial skills, poor math skills, not really sure about obsessive behaviors or attention to detail.

I don't know, I did fit this growing up in some ways but was always more obsessive and detail oriented like an Aspie and am now better at math as an adult. Still spatially ret*d

By the way I'm great at math and from IQ testing I believe my spatial skills are above average, though I think due to my low PSI my PIQ is significantly lower than my VIQ, does that make me NVLD or definately not NVLD?