My First Relationship-The Issues

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Hi, this is the first time I've posted anything on the forums, but I think that I need a little help. I'm 18 years old and I have gotten into my first real relationship and with a NT no less.

The History: we have been friends since junior year in high school and now were both finishing up our first semester in college. I always had a crush on her, from the first day I started at her school, but she had a boyfriend that I could never really compete with. I decided that I would stay quite about it, because I did not want to ruin what we had. But she broke up with him over that summer, so naturally I was elated that he was out of the way. We would spend our lunches together and she would wait with me while I waited for my bus. I always thought that she liked me, but I was to much of a coward to ask her out, because I always thought that she was out of my league and that I could never measure up to her "handsome and popular" ex-boyfriend. This lasted for a year until graduation, when she told me that she has a crush on me. Naturally I was a little shocked, I never thought that the girl of my dreams would ever actually like me back. I was still to shy to do any thing about, so she kissed me first. We've been seeing each other for last few months, about once a week because were both in different schools and we live an half hours drive apart. We have yet to get really "physical" mainly because she just turned 18 this month, while I’ve been 18 for almost a year.

Now the problems (That I see in my twisted view of the world):
#1) She has always been popular with guys, there were at least three other guys with crushes on her in my high school of 200. She has always been fairly liberal with people picking her up or giving her hugs and other fairly innocent physical contact, which I dislike but I don’t want to be the "Jealous Boyfriend" so I have not made a big deal out of it. But now that were in college I have become a little more wary and with good reason it appears. She has a friend T. who had suspicions of the first time she mentioned him, although she wrongly thought his attention was innocent. T. is very similar to me, so much so that we even have the same favorite song (Little Red Riding Hood by SteppenWolf). Since I did not want to be over protective I did not voice my concerns, which was a mistake I think. While hanging out with her friends and T. he confessed to her that he has a crush on her. Later he walked her back home with her friends and while she was on her door step kisses her. She explained that she told him that she was seeing me and that she was not interested in him, he then kisses her again. By this time I had hoped for my sake that she would have stop hanging out with him, but she did not see it as a problem. An for the Coup de Grace she got drunk at his place a week after the kissing incident and was unable to get home safely so she spends the night, alone, with him. The worst part for me is that she decides that it is okay for her to sleep in his bed, oh but not alone. She latter tells me that he sleep in the bed with her, although she says that nothing happened. Now I trust her enough not to lie and I have no reason to disbelieve her, this lack of judgment is puzzling. Is this nothing to worry about or do you think that this is a possible sign of future lapses in judgment? Should I be upset or should I not really care? She says that she like me "more" than she likes him, does any one know how I should react to this statement? Should I not read too much into it or should I invest less into this relationship. While I don’t like her odd decisions, are they that unusual for an NT?

#2) Um... well this one is a little more adult in content than the other issue, but I'm not going to go in to graphic detail, so it should be okay. Although I'm very inexperienced when it comes to relationships I don’t really expect the girls I date to be. But I'm kind irked by her past experience, mainly because I knew her and him at the time. After she broke up with her boyfriend the spring of Junior year I kind of selfishly thought that she was "mine" even though I did not have the courage to ask her out, but I was apparently wrong. While a girl being a virgin is not important, it bothers the hell out of me in this situation. I knew that she was a virgin while we were still juniors, but around half way through senior year we were hanging out and in passing she mentioned that she was not a virgin any longer. I kind of expected this considering she had been with her boyfriend for a few years so I got over it quickly, because it does not really matter. But while we were talking recently she told me that she lost her virginity during senior year. Naturally I was kind of confused because she had not been dating anyone since her last boyfriend. Well she told me that she had been with Jason, but not until six months after they had broken up. Okay, now I know that we were not dating, but hell we were very close during that time. I kind of feel betrayed, but I know there is no reason for this, the feeling is absurd. Thing that really bothers me is that she waited until six months after she broke up with him, not so much what they did. Does anyone have an idea of how this can be interpreted? Is this a bad omen for the future or do I think too much about it? I’m hopelessly lost when it comes to situations like this.

Is it me or are the chooses and decisions of NT’s sometimes impossible to understand? Sometimes an NT will do or say something that seems completely wrong and against common sense, but everyone else seems not to notice or care. Am I the only one or does any one else see this?

Now I would just leave her if all she gave me was trouble, but usually that is not the case. She's normally tolerant of my quarks and odd personality, and has a strange understanding of how I work. In both of the above issues she waited along to tell me what had happened, and she seemed very concerned about how I would feel, she even asked if I "hated" her for it. These things have really thrown me for a loop because I'm not good at dealing with drama and emotions that involve people I care about. And because of this inexperience I have a little trouble in accurately interpreting the situation and what it means. Also I tend to over think things and tend to expect the worst, so I hope your perception of events will help me out.

Okay sorry for relating so much of my uninteresting life for your viewing pleasure, but I thought that the more detail the better (If you want to know anything that I may have left out please point it out and I endeavor to provide the information.). I'm really having trouble with this and since I'm a “lone wolf" kind of a guy (I have "said" more in this than in the last week and a half), but I think the best thing for me to do is talk to friends about this. Unfortunately I have no friends, but this forum seems like the place to get some help from hopefully like minded individuals. So anything advice you can give would be helpful, even if it does not address the questions or specific subject about. Unfortunately I 'm probably going to have other threads about this topic latter on, so if this one is insufferable please tell me so I don’t embarrass myself any more than I have already.

First of all, let me assure you that it is not just Aspies who have trouble understanding NT girls/women. They can be a mystery even to the most 'normal'. *laugh*

That aside, I encourage you to talk to her about your concerns. Of course, that's a lot easier for me to say than for you to do. Maybe you worry than confronting the issue will ruin something you obviously wanted for so long, or perhaps you feel like you are out of line for having these concerns, but the fact remains: You are concerned.

I don't know you at all, so take this with a grain of salt, but I don't think ANY relationship can be happy (for you or her) if you harbor these concerns and don't discuss them. It may seem like the worst thing that could happen is that she breaks up with you, but if you don't talk about it and you stay in a relationship that you don't enjoy, things will just stretch out and be worse when/if the end does come.

Again, I fully understand that this conversation will not be easy for you to start (it wouldn't be for me, at least). Perhaps you can write your feelings in a letter? You can't just send it and not be available, but it may be a good way to get all your thoughts out without argument or discussion. Perhaps write it and ask her to read it with you there. Then, after she's done, you will be there to discuss.

I didn't address any specific issue because I felt that they are reasonable concerns and the only satisfaction you will get will come from her, not from people on this board (we can offer advice, but we can't actually make it better).


Anyway, I hope this helps a little. If it doesn't, feel free to ignore me completely.

-SomeRandomGuy

I am numbering my thoughts, but they don't correspond in any way to the numbers in the original post, so reader beware.


1. There will always be things neurotypicals do that seem illogical or make little sense to us. At the same time, what we do tends to seem illogical or make little sense to them much of the time. We perceive the world in different ways for each other, and our brains are geared to respond differently to things, even when we perceive them differently. I'm not saying either way is better or worse, but it is just a fact of life that we're not always going to be able to understand or be understood. Sometimes it's best just to accept that *to an extent*, as we hope that NTs will accept the inverse, though we can't just accept any sort of behavior when it directly affects us. There do have to be guidelines so that we're not doormats.


2. My best advice is to let a person's dating and sexual history before she started dating you go. Despite any impressions you may have had, when you were her friend, you were just her friend, and when you didn't know her, you didn't know her. Even if you disagree with her choices, they were her choices to make, and she had no responsibility to you. Plus, it's the past, and it can not be changed. The good thing here is that in this specific instance, the girl was open and honest with you about the situation, which is a good thing -- many people lie and pretend to be virgins if they think it'll please the person they're dating. Honesty is much more important to your relationship going forward than what happened in the past with other people prior to your relationship.

It's also notable that the vast, vast majority of people in the United States that marry today are not virgins. I think the figure is in the 90% range. If you're looking for a virgin, you're not going to be likely to find one. And if that person isn't a virgin, does it really matter what the exact circumstances are that led to said person having sex (Aside from any concerns one might have for her emotional well being because it may have been a bad experience or whathaveyou -- when I ask if it matters, I mean, to you, going forward, from a selfish perspective.)? How does it effect you one way or another? Either way, the person is love experienced, for better or for worse.

I understand that oftentimes people would like to have a partner where each of the two have only made love to each other and will only their entire lives. However, in a world where marriage is often delayed until people are in their thirties and forties, that's not likely to happen. Let me just ask you the question: Do you want to wait to have sex until you're married, if you can't find a spouse until you're older? If the answer is no, then why should you expect the same of anyone else?

If someone being a virgin is a trait you consider a positive, then certainly you might consider that to some extent when picking a girlfriend, but I'd strongly advise against making it a deciding criteria. There are too few virgins in the world to do that, because you'll automatically be ruling out 90% of the female population, and I'd imagine there are people that you'd really, really like in that 90%.

Certainly I hope no one rules me out because I've had sex with a few people. I'm a male, though, granted, and people tend to consider having sex experience a positive thing in males more often than not, even while they don't always with women (Don't ask me why, it's neurotypical thing. ), so I may have actually improved my odds because I'm loved experienced.

Personally, I'd be willing to date non-virgins or virgins (And have dated people in both groups). I think there are positive and negative attributes to having a mate in either state of life that balance each other out, more or less.


3. The real problem I see with what you're mentioned here is what your girlfriend is doing *during* your relationship with her. And that's really what you want to be looking at, because that is what has affected you so far and is going to be indicative of how she's likely to behave going forward, which will also affect you and the subjective quality of the relationship in the future.

People have a variety of stances in terms of what's acceptable during a relationship. For some couples, what she's doing might be an acceptable thing. However, I think for the majority of the world, there is going to be a problem when one member of a heterosexual couple is shares a bed with another person of the opposite sex who is outside the couple, even chastely. In a monogamous exclusive relationship, unless there is some prior agreement to the contrary, this is really not something that should be going on.

There are two things going on here beneath the surface that you, as an Aspie, are probably not aware of (I always used to be oblivious to this kind of thing, too, and sometimes still occasionally am). Firstly, by sleeping in the same bed as another man and claiming it's not important and you shouldn't care, she is probably really asserting her dominance in the relationship and making it clear to you that you will be a doormat for her from here on out. Seriously. If she's not doing that, at the least she's treating you like a doormat (Maybe whilst she herself is not even conciously aware of what she's doing).

Secondly, she is testing you and the boundries of the relationship. As she pushes and finds give, she is going to keep pushing further and further. First there was kissing with another guy (Assuming it was anything other than on the cheek, if it was on the cheek, it is generally culturally acceptable and probably shouldn't be held against her), then the chaste sleeping together with another guy. Next will be "Oh, we accidently made out", and then "Oops, we accidently had sex." (PS No one *really* has sex accidently ). I assume you don't want to let these things happened.

The other thing that you need to know here is that she could very well be *lying* about how far things have gone. If she is saying "Oh, we've just kissed and slept together chastely", that could really mean "We're having sex." and she doesn't want to admit that much. I am not saying that *is* what she means or that she has had sex with him, I am just saying that it is a possibility. Part of the social game some neurotypicals play is to tell half-truths to their strategic advantage in situations like this. Somehow admitting what she admitted could ease her conscience enough to hide the rest. Yes, it's not something you or I can identify with, but it seems to be the way some people's brains work in my observation of them.

The question is for you whether or not this is something you are willing to put up with from her. My advise to you would be, don't. Your best course of action in my view would be to demand this stuff stop, and if she refuses, dump her. It's nice to have a girlfriend, but it's also nice to feel respected and loved and not trampled upon. The outside the box answer might be to go for an open relationship, if that's your thing, but it's got to be equal. You can't let her go sleeping with other men and kissing them if that's not what you're agreeing on and you don't get to do the same with other women.


Disclaimer: Don't blame me if my advice is wrong. It probably is. You're asking for advice on an Internet forum full of people with a disability that relates in large part to a lack of social understanding. The answers are thus likely to reflect, well, a lack of social understanding.

Last edited by CharmCityCrab on 23 Nov 2006, 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You do make some very good points though.

We may be social inept in terms of intention and reading subtlety, but we can still work out and learn the various traits of interaction.

Anyway..

The point you made about this:

". As she pushes and finds give, she is going to keep pushing further and further."

Is a VERY good one, I was so obsessed with each partner, I told them they could do anything they wanted, it burned me up inside, but I told her I wasn't even offended when she went off and lusted after another girl, she failed to score and I was the fallback, and I accepted it!

She then slept with another guy while we were on a 3 day break, we both clarified we still loved each other during this time, but she claimed that it was entirely my fault because I said I needed a little break..

I didn't realise it at the time, but it started with little hints that she was attracted to others, then it became full blown cheating, lieing, and games.

I'm definately not saying they all do this, I'm saying that in the beginning I should have told her I'm simply too sensitive to be able to handle that sort of relationship. For months later, I'd repressed it for so long, I simply snapped and hurt her, all my hate and rage came out in one go, and she did not deserve it!

I think its because most people think you understand their intentions..

ie:

She mentions me wanting another girl, at the time all I can say is "That is ridiculous, you know I'm totally obsessed with you" But afterwards I realised all she was trying to say was "I want you to only want me"

Its crazy how these games begin, and build up..

I've had one partner that didn't cheat on me, and she was one I was miserable with, it seems strange that the better a relationship works, the closer I am to someone, the more they need to test me and push the limits..

In the end COMMUNICATION is the key, if you can get through to her how much you care, how much it hurts you to think of her being with others that way, and how loyal you are in return for this, she might understand and agree with you.

I haven't read all of the replies (whoa CharmCityCrab what a mega-response, good on you for taking the time! ), but I have a couple of thoughts on what you have said, so forgive me if I am repeating what others have replied with.

1. I don't think this is normal at all, and highly suspect - you have every right to be suspicious and upset. To me, that whole situation is just ridiculous - sleeping alone in a guys bed with him who has TOLD HER HE LIKES her and KISSED HER prior. Is she stupid? Was there nowhere else to sleep? If this were me she would be long gone. But seeing as she is your dream girl, I think you really need to negotiate (firmly) rules and set limits and boundaries for her, because she obviously has no idea what is and is not acceptable. Or perhaps she does, women do like to test and tease. In any case, tell her how you feel about these things. Honesty is the best policy, and communication is the vessel for honesty.

And you say 'kissed her' - but did he only try to or did he actually do it? And seeing as he tried a second time, she mustn't have been very clear or assertive the first time and let him know that it was completely unacceptable. Very suspicious indeed. T stands for trouble my friend.

2. Don't worry about it, when a relationship starts things are reset. You are being perhaps a little too possessive here, and you have no idea as to her situation with the ex. At this stage, she owed you no loyalty.

Haha the old 'do you hate me' trick. I have heard this so many times (from both friends and it was even used on me a couple of times). Let me clue you in as to how this ploy works: The female will voice the most extreme possibility (in this case, hate) out of nowhere (trust me, she doesn't believe it for a second) in order to catch you off guard and soften you up - an easy way to defuse a situation and distract you from the issue, which is now transferred onto new 'hate' issue ('why would she think that? I have to make it clear that I don't!').

And yes, I find that NT's do the most dishonourable and outright offensive things, and yet it is accepted common practice and nobody bats and eye. What kind of a world is this where people will do anything as long as they can get away with it. In my experience, NT females have no loyalty, the swine!

Riven, as a Aspie who has a lot of NT friends, and has experienced things similar to this, I have some advice for you.

in regard to number one. I think you shouldn't be that concerned, though if I were you I'd be asking at least a couple of her friends if she still wants you, because from what it sounds like, she may be wanting someone else, and as much as she say she may like you, that could be a lie....Hell, probably is a lie. Considering that she slept in the guy's bed........which is kinda weird, why not the couch? though I do have one NT friend who does let guys sleep in her bed with her, but nothing ever comes from that.


in regard to number two, the girl has you wrapped around her finger, probably her pinkie. the fact that she lost her virginity isn't that important, the fact that you think you should dump her is your own prerogative, never give in to the thing if a girl asks if you hate her, that's bad juju right there...............then again, so is cheating on your girlfriend with a chick who is bi.....it doesn't add up.





Mitch, I hate to break it to you but I know a lot of NT females who are very loyal, you must have had some bad experiences my friend.

Well the problem is not that she did lose her virginity, but the how, when and why. It bothers me that she would sleep with her ex-boyfriend after they have be apart six months, he was only in town for a few days visting his family, then he will leave agian, it was not like they were getting back together or anything. It just seems terrible odd and a confusing choice from my point of view.

Okay, so when did she lose her virginity? was it a while ago before she started dating you? or while she was dating you? if number two, then I would advise dumping her post hastius haste.

Gamester: I only know what I see, and I only believe what I know: that NT women are terrible, selfish people.

Then you needs to open thine eyes to the full potential beyond what thou can comprehend my friend. only then once the truth is revealed will you see.

I've had my share of NT women, you must have had the bad end of the spectrumal sthick. that's my only hypothesis.

I think what you are really afraid of is what her actions could suggest: that she is a ho.

Smells like she is.

Time to NEXT her.

yeah. she's trouble mate. I should know. since I'm the cupidesque type person, I usually advise my friends to stay away from a certain girl, or to go after her. I'm proud to say that I've helped two or more couples get together.

Best thing to do is be open and don't lie about your feelings. NTs can give off and understand an array of feelings non-verbally while they are saying others verbally. We don't really have too many options in that case and while it seems voicing your feelings is somewhat "taboo" to other NTs, a person who geniunely cares for both you and the dating relationship will be open to talk about it.

Wish I would have followed this advice with my last GF >.> We dated for 2 years and half of the stuff never got off my chest.

I say a lot of stuff and give off a lot of emotion non-verbally, but I can't read what others are saying between the lines or giving off emotionally when they are talking to me specifically. I don't think it's just NT's that do that. I've learned to read what's happening across the room, but I can't see it happening when it's happening to me. It's a huge blind spot.

To answer the questions from the original post:


It is a sign of future lapses in judgement, certainly. Being upset or caring is your call, but from what I see, this girl is not committed in her heart the same way you are committed to her in yours. She says she likes you "more". Hmm... do you think she's telling the other guy the same thing when you're not around to hear? I'd invest less and start looking for a new dream girl. I believe this is either a play to get your reaction or she really doesn't care about you. I'm not sure if it's typical for an NT. The NT's I've seen would never admit they cheated and just keep right on doing it until they got caught. Since she admitted it to you, it seems more like she's telling you that even though you care for her, she's going to do what ever she wants anyway.



She may not have known at the time she slept with her ex, just how deeply you care for her. Since she slept with him, and now this other guy in college, do you think she will ever be faithful to you? And like someone else said, if she's not going to be faithful to you, ask her if she expects you to be faithful to her. Her response may surprise you. If you're looking for a relationship with her no matter the cost, then you're paying the price with your dignity and self-respect.

NT's are certainly interesting. Their choices suit them for the moment. The other NT's don't really notice, you're correct. You're not the only one that sees this. I see it all the time. It makes me thankful at the end of the day that I live alone now. I don't think I will ever be able to live with another NT ever again and if I do, he will have to enjoy logic and common sense.

that's why at this time, I'd advise you to dump her.

look for another girl, and hope that this time, its easier.

In response to Mikka, she did not admit that she cheated on me. She said that she slept in his bed, but they didn't do anything.