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Divorce and some off-topic argument

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Nikorvus
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29 Jun 2012, 9:31 am

Butters wrote:
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Is it the aspie in me to want to stay in the hope of getting her back? I don't think so but maybe it is? It is the hardest thing I have ever done with no guarantees.


I think most people who have been married want to have hope for saving the relationship and getting their partner back. No one get married in hopes of getting a divorce.


Except golddiggers. :D

But Butters has the right end of it. Damn, if you want to stay in a relationship and the other person wants to stay in a relationship, go forth and conquer. If on the other hand it is a one-sided battle, you're destined to lose.


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hyperlexian
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29 Jun 2012, 1:57 pm

Nikorvus wrote:
Butters wrote:
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Is it the aspie in me to want to stay in the hope of getting her back? I don't think so but maybe it is? It is the hardest thing I have ever done with no guarantees.


I think most people who have been married want to have hope for saving the relationship and getting their partner back. No one get married in hopes of getting a divorce.


Except golddiggers. :D

But Butters has the right end of it. Damn, if you want to stay in a relationship and the other person wants to stay in a relationship, go forth and conquer. If on the other hand it is a one-sided battle, you're destined to lose.

i know you are joking about golddiggers, but perhaps you should become aware that women rarely benefit financially from a divorce. on average, their standard of living goes down in comparison to the ex-husband.


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Nikorvus
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29 Jun 2012, 2:05 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
Nikorvus wrote:
Butters wrote:
Quote:
Is it the aspie in me to want to stay in the hope of getting her back? I don't think so but maybe it is? It is the hardest thing I have ever done with no guarantees.


I think most people who have been married want to have hope for saving the relationship and getting their partner back. No one get married in hopes of getting a divorce.


Except golddiggers. :D

But Butters has the right end of it. Damn, if you want to stay in a relationship and the other person wants to stay in a relationship, go forth and conquer. If on the other hand it is a one-sided battle, you're destined to lose.

i know you are joking about golddiggers, but perhaps you should become aware that women rarely benefit financially from a divorce. on average, their standard of living goes down in comparison to the ex-husband.

Truth.

And not by just a bit. Especially if you look at the standard of living as a whole, not just monetarily.

It's a part of why some women choose to remain in abusive relationships.


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29 Jun 2012, 6:09 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
I know you are joking about golddiggers, but perhaps you should become aware that women rarely benefit financially from a divorce. on average, their standard of living goes down in comparison to the ex-husband.

You know perfectly well that's just not true. Not remotely.



again_with_this
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29 Jun 2012, 6:18 pm

BlueMax wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
I know you are joking about golddiggers, but perhaps you should become aware that women rarely benefit financially from a divorce. on average, their standard of living goes down in comparison to the ex-husband.

You know perfectly well that's just not true. Not remotely.


That's often true if the husband is some big-wig who decides to dump his wife for a hotter, younger woman. Or if a woman has to flee a violent marriage where the husband is the breadwinner.

However, when a woman chooses to leave a man for incompatibility, she usually factors in her post-divorce life. Oh, there's no telling what'll happen during the divorce procedure, but generally, when a woman chooses to leave it's because she knows she can procure a decent standard of living post-divorce. And that's what's happening in this case. And usually, the man still has to pay his ex-wife who chose to divorce him in the first place, so his standard of living is actually less than his ex-wife's.



Last edited by again_with_this on 29 Jun 2012, 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Jun 2012, 6:38 pm

again_with_this wrote:
BlueMax wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
I know you are joking about golddiggers, but perhaps you should become aware that women rarely benefit financially from a divorce. on average, their standard of living goes down in comparison to the ex-husband.

You know perfectly well that's just not true. Not remotely.


That's often true if the husband is some big-wig who decides to dump his wife for a hotter, younger woman. Or if a woman has to flee a violent marriage where the husband is the breadwinner.
However, when a woman chooses to leave a man for incompatibility, she usually factors in her post-divorce life. Oh, there's no telling what'll happen during the divorce procedure, but generally, when a woman chooses to leave it's because she knows she can procure a decent standard of living post-divorce. And that's what's happening in this case.


If Hyperlexian phrased it this way, I'd have agreed with her (and you!) She said it as a near absolute... "Men usually get everything" (paraphrased) - and that's just bull. More and more divorces (I'd dare say 50% or more) are women just "less than 100% satisfied" and taking more than their share when they cut loose, stealing any children in the process. That's not just my personal bitterness talking, it's a serious, growing issue. Very few cases (in comparison) are women running from dangerous husbands and losing anything in the process.



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29 Jun 2012, 6:47 pm

lol i didn't say anything o the sort. i will say it again, and perhaps you will understand better this time: on AVERAGE, men profit more financially after divorce than women do. of course, on an individual level the results can fall anywhere on the spectrum, but on average men end up profiting more from divorce than women do. go ahead and research it for yourself.


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again_with_this
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29 Jun 2012, 6:58 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
lol i didn't say anything o the sort. i will say it again, and perhaps you will understand better this time: on AVERAGE, men profit more financially after divorce than women do. of course, on an individual level the results can fall anywhere on the spectrum, but on average men end up profiting more from divorce than women do. go ahead and research it for yourself.


Think of it this way: You have 100 divorced couples.

In 5 cases, 5 billionaire men dumped their wives
In the other 95 cases, a woman was less than 100% satisfied and left

If you average the post-divorce value of the 100 men v. the 100 women, the men will indeed seem to have a higher standard of living on average, because 5 of those men are billionaires. (In fact, those 5 billionaires have more money than the 100 women and 95 men put together)

But in reality, in 95 of those 100 cases, the man turns out worse financially than his ex-wife.



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29 Jun 2012, 10:59 pm

again_with_this wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
lol i didn't say anything o the sort. i will say it again, and perhaps you will understand better this time: on AVERAGE, men profit more financially after divorce than women do. of course, on an individual level the results can fall anywhere on the spectrum, but on average men end up profiting more from divorce than women do. go ahead and research it for yourself.


Think of it this way: You have 100 divorced couples.

In 5 cases, 5 billionaire men dumped their wives
In the other 95 cases, a woman was less than 100% satisfied and left

If you average the post-divorce value of the 100 men v. the 100 women, the men will indeed seem to have a higher standard of living on average, because 5 of those men are billionaires. (In fact, those 5 billionaires have more money than the 100 women and 95 men put together)

But in reality, in 95 of those 100 cases, the man turns out worse financially than his ex-wife.

you're making up statistics, when in fact you have no basis whatsoever for your assumptions. if you try researching it, you will be rather surprised.


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29 Jun 2012, 11:10 pm

Quote:
Jenkins's research found that the incomes of "separating husbands" rise "immediately and continuously" in the years following a marital split. "The differences between the sexes are stark," he said. "But this is not so much a gender thing as a parent thing. The key differences are not between men and women, but between fathers and mothers."

He found that, when a man leaves a childless marriage, his income immediately rises by 25%. Women, however, suffer a sharp fall in income. Their financial position rarely reaches pre-split levels.

Jenkins combined data from 14 different British Household Panel Surveys over 1991 to 2004 with the findings from five European surveys. Recalculating the results using the formula by which the government measures poverty, he established new per capita incomes. Jenkins found that the positive effect on men's finances is so significant that divorce can even lift them out of poverty, while women are far more likely to be plunged into destitution. Separated women have a poverty rate of 27% - almost three times that of their former husbands.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... n-research


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29 Jun 2012, 11:24 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
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Jenkins's research found that the incomes of "separating husbands" rise "immediately and continuously" in the years following a marital split. "The differences between the sexes are stark," he said. "But this is not so much a gender thing as a parent thing. The key differences are not between men and women, but between fathers and mothers."

He found that, when a man leaves a childless marriage, his income immediately rises by 25%. Women, however, suffer a sharp fall in income. Their financial position rarely reaches pre-split levels.

Jenkins combined data from 14 different British Household Panel Surveys over 1991 to 2004 with the findings from five European surveys. Recalculating the results using the formula by which the government measures poverty, he established new per capita incomes. Jenkins found that the positive effect on men's finances is so significant that divorce can even lift them out of poverty, while women are far more likely to be plunged into destitution. Separated women have a poverty rate of 27% - almost three times that of their former husbands.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... n-research


For my family, it was the opposite, but OK.



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29 Jun 2012, 11:58 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/25/divorce-women-research


My "statistics" were actually just an example of showing how averages can be greatly skewed by a minority.

It's also important to take into account divorce laws in different countries. Your article dealt with England and Wales, things may be different in the United States where I live, or in Canada where you live. I don't know much about British alimony laws, etc.

That said, how many divorced men and women do you know personally? It's important to actually apply real-world observations with theory. I don't agree with your notion that women end up much worse financially, and a British website doesn't say much either. It discussed their immediate earnings post-divorce, but didn't mention how much of the man's greater earnings have to go to supporting the ex-wife.

Alimony is considered earnings for tax purposes in the US, but this British article appears to focus on immediate personal income post-divorce. I think there's much you're neglecting to take into consideration.



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30 Jun 2012, 12:12 am

again_with_this wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/25/divorce-women-research


My "statistics" were actually just an example of showing how averages can be greatly skewed by a minority.

It's also important to take into account divorce laws in different countries. Your article dealt with England and Wales, things may be different in the United States where I live, or in Canada where you live. I don't know much about British alimony laws, etc.

That said, how many divorced men and women do you know personally? It's important to actually apply real-world observations with theory. I don't agree with your notion that women end up much worse financially, and a British website doesn't say much either. It discussed their immediate earnings post-divorce, but didn't mention how much of the man's greater earnings have to go to supporting the ex-wife.

Alimony is considered earnings for tax purposes in the US, but this British article appears to focus on immediate personal income post-divorce. I think there's much you're neglecting to take into consideration.

ok, let's speak anecdotally: every single divorced woman i know in real life has ended up in worse financial circumstances while every single divorced man i know has ended up in better financial circumstances. it has been pretty cut and dried in my world.

i could not find recent data from Canada or the US. however, Australia recently analysed some data:
Quote:
Nevertheless, even when more stringent derivatives of the Henderson line are adopted, clear gender divisions remain: the financial vulnerability of women post-divorce continues to be apparent. For older women at least, this vulnerability is not solely a function of the presence of children in their households: those living alone also had a relatively high rate of financial disadvantage. (There were too few younger women living alone to assess trends in equivalent household income.) It is important to note, however, that unlike younger men and women who were financially disadvantaged, the majority of older women with incomes below the Henderson poverty line had low housing costs.
...

At the broadest level then, the results in this paper suggest that, while financial disadvantage has a presence that can transcend gender, in the main, post-divorce economic circumstances still appear to be different for men and women — with divorced women faring worse economically than divorced men in the short- to medium-term at least.

http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/pubs/RP23.html

i'd be interested to see any papers that contradict these conclusions. you have not offered any.


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Last edited by hyperlexian on 30 Jun 2012, 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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30 Jun 2012, 12:28 am

hyperlexian wrote:
ok, let's speak anecdotally: every single divorced woman i know in real life has ended up in worse financial circumstances while every single divorced man i know has ended up in better financial circumstances. it has been pretty cut and dried in my world.


Anecdotally, I've seen the opposite, cut and dried, in my world. Wife gets the house, cars, husband lives in like...an efficiency apartment paying child support and alimony. 99% of the time.



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30 Jun 2012, 12:30 am

hyperlexian wrote:
i'd be interested to see any papers that contradict these conclusions. you have not offered any.


http://www.divorce.usu.edu/files/uploads/Lesson7.pdf
This site discusses what you said about women, but also addresses the myth of men faring better. Scroll down to page 3.

http://www.yourfirm.com/7_myths.pdf
A list of divorce myths including the one discussed here, see Myth 7

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505268_162- ... -than-men/
From 2012, argues women faring better financially after divorce.



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30 Jun 2012, 1:04 am

hyperlexian wrote:
ok, let's speak anecdotally: every single divorced woman i know in real life has ended up in worse financial circumstances while every single divorced man i know has ended up in better financial circumstances. it has been pretty cut and dried in my world.


HOW??? How is it possible a man to end up better off? It's just not physically possible that he has to pay child support, alimony and his own home on a single income, yet come out ahead????


I know one way how, and that's if you also factor in his wife spending all his income before the divorce like mine did. Even after my child support payments, I'm financially better off but that's because she's not there like a human leech draining away MY finances while keeping what little she brought in in a secret savings account of her own.

Maybe your female friends are worse off because they have to pay their OWN bills for a change?

"What's yours is mine, what's mine is mine."

EDIT: Rather than posting any replies, I've noticed the attempts to attack my character to discredit me in order to negate the comment I made. It's not worth the pointless effort to argue. "Mighty neighbourly... Mighty neighbourly..."



Last edited by BlueMax on 30 Jun 2012, 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.