Discipline and Pee?
11 Aug 2012, 1:09 pm
I have a newly diagnosed five year old son with Asperger's.
My child, from about the time he was 2 1/2, pees on/in things other than a toilet whenever he so pleases.
Most of the time, I can tell the behavior is prompted by him feeling angry with me for any given reason, but some occasions seem to be completely unprompted and it IS 100% intentional (NOT an accident!)
We just had an incident with him now.
He was sitting playing video games in the living room with us and decided to respond to part of our conversation using a swear word. This is an ongoing battle with him, but I think we may have found a few methods that are working. I tell J he can no longer play video games right now, because he used a bad word, and must go "do a chore" as a punishment (our chores for him are simple. Pick up 10 items, help me put something away, empty a trash can, etc. He seems to be responding well to this.) J became very angry and called us several bad names, so I removed him to his bed to sit out for a bit. He was venting out some frustration/anger so I left the room for a few minutes while he calmed (when he is in this state he is not willing to accept any physical stimuli like hugs.)
I re-entered the room in time to see him finish peeing on the floor. Purposely, not accidental.
I questioned him calmly, but all he would tell me is that he is angry and that is why he peed on the floor. Asking him "where do we pee?" resulted in grunts and points to the bathroom. He knows, it is purely intentional when he pees elsewhere.
My question, is what do I do about it?
I have been dealing with this nearing three years now. It is simple to say, I am FED UP!
How do I discipline for this? Obviously everything I have tried isn't working, but we have also only recently learned he is Asperger's, so those methods literally may not have had any effect anyway.
Help please?
11 Aug 2012, 2:53 pm
My child, from about the time he was 2 1/2, pees on/in things other than a toilet whenever he so pleases.
Most of the time, I can tell the behavior is prompted by him feeling angry with me for any given reason, but some occasions seem to be completely unprompted and it IS 100% intentional (NOT an accident!)
We just had an incident with him now.
He was sitting playing video games in the living room with us and decided to respond to part of our conversation using a swear word. This is an ongoing battle with him, but I think we may have found a few methods that are working. I tell J he can no longer play video games right now, because he used a bad word, and must go "do a chore" as a punishment (our chores for him are simple. Pick up 10 items, help me put something away, empty a trash can, etc. He seems to be responding well to this.) J became very angry and called us several bad names, so I removed him to his bed to sit out for a bit. He was venting out some frustration/anger so I left the room for a few minutes while he calmed (when he is in this state he is not willing to accept any physical stimuli like hugs.)
I re-entered the room in time to see him finish peeing on the floor. Purposely, not accidental.
I questioned him calmly, but all he would tell me is that he is angry and that is why he peed on the floor. Asking him "where do we pee?" resulted in grunts and points to the bathroom. He knows, it is purely intentional when he pees elsewhere.
My question, is what do I do about it?
I have been dealing with this nearing three years now. It is simple to say, I am FED UP!
How do I discipline for this? Obviously everything I have tried isn't working, but we have also only recently learned he is Asperger's, so those methods literally may not have had any effect anyway.
Help please?
Children with AS can be incredibly resilient to punishment. It frequently helps for them to have visual ques to guide them, such as sticker star charts. These are charts you can make using poster board and those green, red, and gold, star stickers.
How you might fashion it for your child's needs is to allow him to pick what color he wants "good" stars to be, and what color he wants "bad" stars to me. At the beginning of the day, he can place a "good" star on the chart. But if he urinates where he shouldn't during that day, you place a "bad" star over the good star. If he makes it through the day, he gets a special treat at the end. If he makes it through the week with all good stars, he gets an extra special treat.
When he does urinate where he shouldn't. Don't make a deal out of it. Calmly tell him "there goes your good star" and leave it at that, even if he protests and apologizes. He will have the next day to make it up.
With children with AS, the trick is often to be calm, and more stubborn than they are.
11 Aug 2012, 6:45 pm
Another poster here offered a perspective that I find incredibly useful: to think of my son with AS as being about 1/3 less than his biological age (being as AS is a developmental delay, this makes complete sense.) Obviously, this doesn't work in specific, but in cases where there is behavior that totally flummoxes me, I often find it makes sense when viewed through this frame.
In your case, this would mean that your son is responding as though he's just older than 3. This seems kind of "normal" three-year-old behavior, doesn't it?
So, my answer: parent the way you would a three-year-old. First, I'd check to make sure there's no medical issue (get him tested for a urinary tract infection, in other words.) Then, I'd ask him to help clean it up (to the best of his ability) Then, I'd work through potty training again however that worked for you the first time: having him go on a schedule and with a sticker chart, etc.
Chronos is right: visual supports are really important. You could set up a visual schedule and direct him to that every time there is an accident - something like this: http://www.child-autism-parent-cafe.com ... edule.html You may also want to create a similar schedule for the steps to clean up an accident as well.
11 Aug 2012, 7:31 pm
Based on what you said, and assuming you are sure it is not a coincidence, and he otherwise can pee properly, that is what other people would probably label "oppositional" behavior. I don't like the word, but I am introducing it here because it is the word commonly used.
The real question is why he is acting out in this way. I don't know if the intentional peeing thing is common for a certain developmental age, because we never had intentional/anger pee related incidents. Ours were always related to not wanting to interrupt his activities. Your son may be under a lot of stress and something else is going on other than he just does not want to comply with a particular request, especially if he does it when you don't see what is causing the incident.
What is his emotional awareness level? This may sound like a silly question but it is important. Does he know what the emotions are, can he recognize them in other people, can he recognize them in himself either during or after something happens?
My son struggles with this terribly. When kids can't recognize emotions, they also cannot manage them. This is common in varying degree among kids/people on the spectrum. His emotions may even be scary to him. at least the negative ones. If he cannot understand what he is feeling, maybe he responds in a physical way, because he doesn't know what else to do.
12 Aug 2012, 8:28 am
It is entirely intentional, as sometimes he will openly and proudly admit to doing it or will aim for a specific toy/cup/bin/etc.
Does anyone have some good tool for helping him understand emotion? We had a cool book I wanted to use, food with moods or something similar, but he and his brother destroyed it. Is that particular book good? I could find another copy.
Yes, thinking of him as a third of his age has actually helped us tremendously. That advice was given to me in my first thread here, and we have tried to keep it in mind this last week. There were a few tantrums/meltdowns I successfully eased or ended because I made myself talk to him/see the matter from a 2 year old's view rather than a five year old's. It has also helped my SO in regards to J's emotions, behavior, and care.
I'm not certain a sticker chart will help him in this matter, but I do think I might implement that elsewhere. We have LOTS of undesirable behavior right now!
12 Aug 2012, 9:10 am
I'm not thinking the sticker chart in the traditional sense: more like, go back to whatever you did to potty train him, and start there.
When DS wants to reach for something developmentally ahead of him, we make him "earn" it with behavior. (You'll see a number of posts on this about media for us right now.) So, basically, it's - if he wants the privileges of fully potty-trained behavior, he has to show he's responsible enough to handle it. Explain the logic.
I wouldn't go so far as to put him back in diapers, because I could see the potential for that backfiring on you, but I'd go as close to that step as I could and work from there.
Also - I'm realizing if you're struggling with a lot of behavior, another reminder is that kids on the HF end of the spectrum's ability to talk often belies their ability to understand. I often describe DS as being like the ELIZA computer program, DOCTOR, if you remember that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA Essentially, for years, DS was using some kind of algorithm-like system to give the "right response" when we talked to him - without any more understanding of the interaction than when-they-say-A, I-respond-with-B. This is why the visual systems (even if they seem infantilizing for a very verbal child) are so critical - your child may have NO IDEA what you want, and be living in a very frightening random world where people yell at him all the time for no reason (from his perspective.)
I remember five as being particularly difficult for us, because things were coming to a head, but we had no diagnosis and zero support. At the time, I thought it was all my fault, but it was also frightening because the behavior was so inexplicable to me. In retrospect, I now see that DS had no markers to make sense out of what was happening or what was expected of him.
Have you seen this article? http://www.oneplaceforspecialneeds.com/ ... utism.html
12 Aug 2012, 2:16 pm
my daughter wees a lot too, we believe it is a physical problem which we are awaiting a paed appt for, so consider this first, constipation can strangely also cause a lot of weeing incidents, and ive read before that ppl with autism can often have bowel problems and are partial to constipation.
id say dont remove good stickers and replace with bad, this means you are saying "well you did something good and we were proud of you but because youve now done this we are removing that" youve already praised him for that dont remove his good things as they are what you should all be proud of. we have a special treat bag full of little toys instead of sweets as treats as i dont believe its good to encourage sweet things as a treat as it encourages as adults to eat to relieve emotions and we emotionally eat, food is for supplying energy to the body and it isnt good to become addicted to sugar (which we all are, just try and give it up for 2 weeks and watch all the emotions that will come out that havent been dealt with due to having something 'nice' when you feel stressed out)
anyway my point was treats should be little gifts that he can keep and look at and see that he earned, not something that will disappear into his belly never to be seen and then his body will struggle to process (refined sugars).
I'd say what people say about his 'emotional age' is very true, he's 5 and probabl exceeds his norms in certain areas but he will be much younger than that age in reasoning and other certain things, which is fine, we know he has autism. Potty training for kids with autism is much more difficult as well as some other physical developments, i know that i had trouble with toiletting until quite an old age, in fact i remember wetting the bed at 13 still every so often and hiding the sheets, i always struggled with remembering or bothering to go, why stop such an interesting thing that you are doing if you think you can hold on for a bit longer? and for your son it may be that 'why stop and go somewhere that isnt interesting to go wee when i can go wee here instead and continue what im doing'
i wouldnt make a big deal, go back to basics, if he wets his trousers and pants he will feel uncomfortable, just as babys in reusable nappies train quicker as they can feel more wetness, so leave the clothes on for as long as you feel comfortable, maybe point out that his trousers are wet and ask how it feels on his skin, it wont feel nice and kids with autism probably will notice that more than kids without, sensory is a big thing as you probably know, then change him and say 'if you wee on the toilet then we dont have to do this and you can play longer, or you wont feel uncomfortable'
make it so clear, make the words that are important stand out i.e. wee on toilet play LONGER wee on floor play STOP to CHANGE you
this will help if he's into a special interest at that time.
it's hard, if you really believe it is because he is pushing boundaries as all children do then perhaps try a time out step, take him to a step or special place to sit which is quiet and hasnt got a lot of sensory things around, sit him down and have a quiet calm chat about it, say you want him to sit here for a little while ( an egg timer is awesome for this and they can watch and know that now they can get off the step), make it short times at first, 30 seconds or whatever you think he can do, its not a punishment, punishments are old fashioned, its behaviour management, having a change to talk about why you dont want him to do something, explain risks, explan your emotions and show emotion cards with sad or happy faces etc, it gives you time to take a breath too! its NOT a naughty step and this is where the name has gone wrong, he isnt naughty no child is, they arent born evil they are born to learn and push boundaries so they can learn, sure they drive you round the bend but its how we deal with it that affects how they deal with things when they are older. explain that its a time out spot and after a while he will understand that unwanted behaviour means he has to have time out, and positive behaviour means he gets rewards and good things.
stick with it, be concisent with what you choose to do, being on the spectrum can be hard and life is frustrating sometimes, sometimes you just feel angry and fed up and sensory overload and dont even have the time or awareness of other people, it just doesnt matter when you are struggling, if he's just started school then this is a big change and he is settling in so there will be some issues like this. just stick with it and let him know you love him, apologise if you got angry, let him know you have weaknesses too and we all can do things wrong as long as we recognize the consequences and apoligise if we've hurt someone.
Keep with it xx
_________________
Your Aspie score: 195 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 2 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie
Got kids? Got kids in car seats? Turning them forward facing? Read this first: http://www.rearfacing.co.uk/
12 Aug 2012, 2:27 pm
When DS wants to reach for something developmentally ahead of him, we make him "earn" it with behavior. (You'll see a number of posts on this about media for us right now.) So, basically, it's - if he wants the privileges of fully potty-trained behavior, he has to show he's responsible enough to handle it. Explain the logic.
Yes, isn't this called abuse it, lose it?
Also - I'm realizing if you're struggling with a lot of behavior, another reminder is that kids on the HF end of the spectrum's ability to talk often belies their ability to understand. I often describe DS as being like the ELIZA computer program, DOCTOR, if you remember that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA Essentially, for years, DS was using some kind of algorithm-like system to give the "right response" when we talked to him - without any more understanding of the interaction than when-they-say-A, I-respond-with-B. This is why the visual systems (even if they seem infantilizing for a very verbal child) are so critical - your child may have NO IDEA what you want, and be living in a very frightening random world where people yell at him all the time for no reason (from his perspective.)
I used to spend hours playing with Eliza. I loved that program when I was a child. This was back in the day that there were no hard drives and all disks were 5 1/4 black disks. If you touched the film that looked circular and looked like an oval you could screw the program up on it.
Yes, you're right. He is using an algorithm-like system. I have done it as well. For example, until I understood the subtext and context behind the phrase "You're entitled to nothing" I could conclude that since I am entitled to nothing then I am not entitled to obey what anyone including a parent says. The word entitle is the root word of the word entitled and entitle means to give permission to have something or do something.
My father was a special education teacher who said I only spoke to him and when I did I would only use quasi-logic and draw conclusions. I did not do give and take and I just mainly sat in my own corner. It was the quasi-logic that determined I needed special help. How would you deal with someone like me who is more like your parents since I'm socratic like them?
12 Aug 2012, 3:32 pm
My son did the same. I solved the problem applying this procedure
Guidelines for Toilet Training Program
Adapted from the Foxx and Azrin Program
1. When beginning the potty training program, be sure that the child is wearing regular underpants. Diapers or pull-ups may only be worn each night while the child is sleeping, but should be replaced with underpants when they awake.
2. Keep the child’s bladder full most of the day by giving the child as much fluid as they can drink. Do not give the child salty foods in order to create an EO to drink. Salty foods will cause the child to retain water.
3. Take the child to the bathroom every 30 minutes. Stay on the potty for 10-20 minutes or until the child voids. If the child does not void, instruct them to put their clothing back on using minimal prompts and allow them to leave the bathroom. Boys should also be sitting on the toilet.
4. If the child voids during this time, provide tangible reinforcement and praise immediately. Prompt them as little as possible to pull their clothing back on and allow them to leave the bathroom.
5. Every 5 minutes, check the child to see if they are dry. Put the child’s hand on their pants so they can check themselves. If the child is dry, provide reinforcement and praise.
6. If the child is not dry during “dry checks”, be sure they touch the wet pants and tell them where they are supposed to urinate. Then immediately take them to the bathroom. Prompt them to sit on the potty, and then prompt them to stand and pull their wet pants back up (use the minimal amount of prompts required). Immediately return to the spot they urinated in and follow the routine again. Repeat this positive practice procedure five times. Use full prompting if necessary. After the fifth practice, change the child into dry clothing and have the child clean the spot where the accident occurred. Do not provide a lot of attention at this time. The positive practice procedure is not fun for the child.
7. Typically, children will have many potty accidents when you first begin this procedure. Do not get discouraged. Continue to implement the positive practice procedure.
8. The first time the child self-initiates stop scheduling the child for potty time. At this point you will not schedule them again. If you continue to schedule the child they will become dependent on the schedule and not initiate.
9. Be sure to continue to fill the child’s bladder with fluids. Initially, more accidents will begin to occur. Use the positive practice procedure when this happens.
10. The accidents should cease within a short period of time. Usually the child will then begin to initiate frequently. If the child self initiates one time and never initiates again (over the next two weeks), start scheduling them again.
11. A requesting repertoire is not a pre-requisite for this procedure. You should not be requiring the child to mand for potty during training (do not prompt them to ask for the potty).
12. After the child has had 20 consecutive initiations with no accidents you may stop forcing fluids.
13. When you are ready to try to take them to the store or other public places use the following procedure: Fill the child’s bladder before you leave so that they should need to go as soon as you get there. Find the restroom as soon as you get to the store. Walk in with the child but say nothing. Walk to the stall and show them the toilet. See if they will initiate. If they do not, try using minimal prompts.
14. Bowel training: Accidents of this type will continue to occur after the voiding is under control. Resist the temptation to put the child back in diapers. Do not use positive practice for BM accidents. Only require that the child clean the mess. Eventually the child will begin using the toilet for BMs also.
15. If the child has a fairly regular bowel schedule you may want to try to schedule them and have them sit on the toilet for a while during that time.
16. Once the child is voiding and having BM’s in the potty, it is then time to teach the boys to stand while urinating.
17. Once the child is self-initiating for a period of one month with no accidents, you may then teach them to mand for the potty by stopping them when they are walking to the toilet, temporarily blocking access to the toilet, and prompting them to mand for the potty. Do no teach the child to mand until self-initiation is strong.
www.vbntraining.com
12 Aug 2012, 4:42 pm
Guidelines for Toilet Training Program
Adapted from the Foxx and Azrin Program
1. When beginning the potty training program, be sure that the child is wearing regular underpants. Diapers or pull-ups may only be worn each night while the child is sleeping, but should be replaced with underpants when they awake.
2. Keep the child’s bladder full most of the day by giving the child as much fluid as they can drink. Do not give the child salty foods in order to create an EO to drink. Salty foods will cause the child to retain water.
3. Take the child to the bathroom every 30 minutes. Stay on the potty for 10-20 minutes or until the child voids. If the child does not void, instruct them to put their clothing back on using minimal prompts and allow them to leave the bathroom. Boys should also be sitting on the toilet.
4. If the child voids during this time, provide tangible reinforcement and praise immediately. Prompt them as little as possible to pull their clothing back on and allow them to leave the bathroom.
5. Every 5 minutes, check the child to see if they are dry. Put the child’s hand on their pants so they can check themselves. If the child is dry, provide reinforcement and praise.
6. If the child is not dry during “dry checks”, be sure they touch the wet pants and tell them where they are supposed to urinate. Then immediately take them to the bathroom. Prompt them to sit on the potty, and then prompt them to stand and pull their wet pants back up (use the minimal amount of prompts required). Immediately return to the spot they urinated in and follow the routine again. Repeat this positive practice procedure five times. Use full prompting if necessary. After the fifth practice, change the child into dry clothing and have the child clean the spot where the accident occurred. Do not provide a lot of attention at this time. The positive practice procedure is not fun for the child.
7. Typically, children will have many potty accidents when you first begin this procedure. Do not get discouraged. Continue to implement the positive practice procedure.
8. The first time the child self-initiates stop scheduling the child for potty time. At this point you will not schedule them again. If you continue to schedule the child they will become dependent on the schedule and not initiate.
9. Be sure to continue to fill the child’s bladder with fluids. Initially, more accidents will begin to occur. Use the positive practice procedure when this happens.
10. The accidents should cease within a short period of time. Usually the child will then begin to initiate frequently. If the child self initiates one time and never initiates again (over the next two weeks), start scheduling them again.
11. A requesting repertoire is not a pre-requisite for this procedure. You should not be requiring the child to mand for potty during training (do not prompt them to ask for the potty).
12. After the child has had 20 consecutive initiations with no accidents you may stop forcing fluids.
13. When you are ready to try to take them to the store or other public places use the following procedure: Fill the child’s bladder before you leave so that they should need to go as soon as you get there. Find the restroom as soon as you get to the store. Walk in with the child but say nothing. Walk to the stall and show them the toilet. See if they will initiate. If they do not, try using minimal prompts.
14. Bowel training: Accidents of this type will continue to occur after the voiding is under control. Resist the temptation to put the child back in diapers. Do not use positive practice for BM accidents. Only require that the child clean the mess. Eventually the child will begin using the toilet for BMs also.
15. If the child has a fairly regular bowel schedule you may want to try to schedule them and have them sit on the toilet for a while during that time.
16. Once the child is voiding and having BM’s in the potty, it is then time to teach the boys to stand while urinating.
17. Once the child is self-initiating for a period of one month with no accidents, you may then teach them to mand for the potty by stopping them when they are walking to the toilet, temporarily blocking access to the toilet, and prompting them to mand for the potty. Do no teach the child to mand until self-initiation is strong.
www.vbntraining.com
Im sorry but this is disgusting, forcing fluids and making a child sit on the toilet for 20 minutes?! You wouldn't even have a time out for longer than a minute per year of their age, they shouldn't sit that long let alone the issues with forcing a child to sit on a potty and future issues with toiletting.
There is so much wrong with this, they arent a procedure to type into the computer, how would you like it if someone forced you to sit on the toilet for 20 minutes at an adult age let alone as a child!
I would say from a child psychology point of view this 'process' you have listed is going to cause huge toileting problems in the long run, an unhappy child and a fed up parent. Sure put them in underwear rather than pull ups, show them the potty make it a positive thing but dont force it like this.
I mean where did you get this stuff?! It angers me as a parent and a child care practitioner. It's selfish, parent doesn't want child to wee everywhere so forces to sit on potty for half an hour, I mean it's leaning to abuse isn't it.
_________________
Your Aspie score: 195 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 2 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie
Got kids? Got kids in car seats? Turning them forward facing? Read this first: http://www.rearfacing.co.uk/
13 Aug 2012, 12:28 pm
Guidelines for Toilet Training Program
Adapted from the Foxx and Azrin Program
1. When beginning the potty training program, be sure that the child is wearing regular underpants. Diapers or pull-ups may only be worn each night while the child is sleeping, but should be replaced with underpants when they awake.
2. Keep the child’s bladder full most of the day by giving the child as much fluid as they can drink. Do not give the child salty foods in order to create an EO to drink. Salty foods will cause the child to retain water.
3. Take the child to the bathroom every 30 minutes. Stay on the potty for 10-20 minutes or until the child voids. If the child does not void, instruct them to put their clothing back on using minimal prompts and allow them to leave the bathroom. Boys should also be sitting on the toilet.
4. If the child voids during this time, provide tangible reinforcement and praise immediately. Prompt them as little as possible to pull their clothing back on and allow them to leave the bathroom.
5. Every 5 minutes, check the child to see if they are dry. Put the child’s hand on their pants so they can check themselves. If the child is dry, provide reinforcement and praise.
6. If the child is not dry during “dry checks”, be sure they touch the wet pants and tell them where they are supposed to urinate. Then immediately take them to the bathroom. Prompt them to sit on the potty, and then prompt them to stand and pull their wet pants back up (use the minimal amount of prompts required). Immediately return to the spot they urinated in and follow the routine again. Repeat this positive practice procedure five times. Use full prompting if necessary. After the fifth practice, change the child into dry clothing and have the child clean the spot where the accident occurred. Do not provide a lot of attention at this time. The positive practice procedure is not fun for the child.
7. Typically, children will have many potty accidents when you first begin this procedure. Do not get discouraged. Continue to implement the positive practice procedure.
8. The first time the child self-initiates stop scheduling the child for potty time. At this point you will not schedule them again. If you continue to schedule the child they will become dependent on the schedule and not initiate.
9. Be sure to continue to fill the child’s bladder with fluids. Initially, more accidents will begin to occur. Use the positive practice procedure when this happens.
10. The accidents should cease within a short period of time. Usually the child will then begin to initiate frequently. If the child self initiates one time and never initiates again (over the next two weeks), start scheduling them again.
11. A requesting repertoire is not a pre-requisite for this procedure. You should not be requiring the child to mand for potty during training (do not prompt them to ask for the potty).
12. After the child has had 20 consecutive initiations with no accidents you may stop forcing fluids.
13. When you are ready to try to take them to the store or other public places use the following procedure: Fill the child’s bladder before you leave so that they should need to go as soon as you get there. Find the restroom as soon as you get to the store. Walk in with the child but say nothing. Walk to the stall and show them the toilet. See if they will initiate. If they do not, try using minimal prompts.
14. Bowel training: Accidents of this type will continue to occur after the voiding is under control. Resist the temptation to put the child back in diapers. Do not use positive practice for BM accidents. Only require that the child clean the mess. Eventually the child will begin using the toilet for BMs also.
15. If the child has a fairly regular bowel schedule you may want to try to schedule them and have them sit on the toilet for a while during that time.
16. Once the child is voiding and having BM’s in the potty, it is then time to teach the boys to stand while urinating.
17. Once the child is self-initiating for a period of one month with no accidents, you may then teach them to mand for the potty by stopping them when they are walking to the toilet, temporarily blocking access to the toilet, and prompting them to mand for the potty. Do no teach the child to mand until self-initiation is strong.
www.vbntraining.com
Im sorry but this is disgusting, forcing fluids and making a child sit on the toilet for 20 minutes?! You wouldn't even have a time out for longer than a minute per year of their age, they shouldn't sit that long let alone the issues with forcing a child to sit on a potty and future issues with toiletting.
There is so much wrong with this, they arent a procedure to type into the computer, how would you like it if someone forced you to sit on the toilet for 20 minutes at an adult age let alone as a child!
I would say from a child psychology point of view this 'process' you have listed is going to cause huge toileting problems in the long run, an unhappy child and a fed up parent. Sure put them in underwear rather than pull ups, show them the potty make it a positive thing but dont force it like this.
I mean where did you get this stuff?! It angers me as a parent and a child care practitioner. It's selfish, parent doesn't want child to wee everywhere so forces to sit on potty for half an hour, I mean it's leaning to abuse isn't it.
I think this is a form of negative reinforcement. It's like pavlov's dogs but in a negative form. I do wonder was this rigorously scientifically tested using double blind protocols and the scientific method?
Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 13 Aug 2012, 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
13 Aug 2012, 12:44 pm
Guidelines for Toilet Training Program
Adapted from the Foxx and Azrin Program
1. When beginning the potty training program, be sure that the child is wearing regular underpants. Diapers or pull-ups may only be worn each night while the child is sleeping, but should be replaced with underpants when they awake.
2. Keep the child’s bladder full most of the day by giving the child as much fluid as they can drink. Do not give the child salty foods in order to create an EO to drink. Salty foods will cause the child to retain water.
3. Take the child to the bathroom every 30 minutes. Stay on the potty for 10-20 minutes or until the child voids. If the child does not void, instruct them to put their clothing back on using minimal prompts and allow them to leave the bathroom. Boys should also be sitting on the toilet.
4. If the child voids during this time, provide tangible reinforcement and praise immediately. Prompt them as little as possible to pull their clothing back on and allow them to leave the bathroom.
5. Every 5 minutes, check the child to see if they are dry. Put the child’s hand on their pants so they can check themselves. If the child is dry, provide reinforcement and praise.
6. If the child is not dry during “dry checks”, be sure they touch the wet pants and tell them where they are supposed to urinate. Then immediately take them to the bathroom. Prompt them to sit on the potty, and then prompt them to stand and pull their wet pants back up (use the minimal amount of prompts required). Immediately return to the spot they urinated in and follow the routine again. Repeat this positive practice procedure five times. Use full prompting if necessary. After the fifth practice, change the child into dry clothing and have the child clean the spot where the accident occurred. Do not provide a lot of attention at this time. The positive practice procedure is not fun for the child.
7. Typically, children will have many potty accidents when you first begin this procedure. Do not get discouraged. Continue to implement the positive practice procedure.
8. The first time the child self-initiates stop scheduling the child for potty time. At this point you will not schedule them again. If you continue to schedule the child they will become dependent on the schedule and not initiate.
9. Be sure to continue to fill the child’s bladder with fluids. Initially, more accidents will begin to occur. Use the positive practice procedure when this happens.
10. The accidents should cease within a short period of time. Usually the child will then begin to initiate frequently. If the child self initiates one time and never initiates again (over the next two weeks), start scheduling them again.
11. A requesting repertoire is not a pre-requisite for this procedure. You should not be requiring the child to mand for potty during training (do not prompt them to ask for the potty).
12. After the child has had 20 consecutive initiations with no accidents you may stop forcing fluids.
13. When you are ready to try to take them to the store or other public places use the following procedure: Fill the child’s bladder before you leave so that they should need to go as soon as you get there. Find the restroom as soon as you get to the store. Walk in with the child but say nothing. Walk to the stall and show them the toilet. See if they will initiate. If they do not, try using minimal prompts.
14. Bowel training: Accidents of this type will continue to occur after the voiding is under control. Resist the temptation to put the child back in diapers. Do not use positive practice for BM accidents. Only require that the child clean the mess. Eventually the child will begin using the toilet for BMs also.
15. If the child has a fairly regular bowel schedule you may want to try to schedule them and have them sit on the toilet for a while during that time.
16. Once the child is voiding and having BM’s in the potty, it is then time to teach the boys to stand while urinating.
17. Once the child is self-initiating for a period of one month with no accidents, you may then teach them to mand for the potty by stopping them when they are walking to the toilet, temporarily blocking access to the toilet, and prompting them to mand for the potty. Do no teach the child to mand until self-initiation is strong.
www.vbntraining.com
Im sorry but this is disgusting, forcing fluids and making a child sit on the toilet for 20 minutes?! You wouldn't even have a time out for longer than a minute per year of their age, they shouldn't sit that long let alone the issues with forcing a child to sit on a potty and future issues with toiletting.
There is so much wrong with this, they arent a procedure to type into the computer, how would you like it if someone forced you to sit on the toilet for 20 minutes at an adult age let alone as a child!
I would say from a child psychology point of view this 'process' you have listed is going to cause huge toileting problems in the long run, an unhappy child and a fed up parent. Sure put them in underwear rather than pull ups, show them the potty make it a positive thing but dont force it like this.
I mean where did you get this stuff?! It angers me as a parent and a child care practitioner. It's selfish, parent doesn't want child to wee everywhere so forces to sit on potty for half an hour, I mean it's leaning to abuse isn't it.
I think this is a form of negative reinforcement. It's like pavlov's dogs but in a negative form.
I didn't think of "forcing fluids" or "sitting on the toilet for 10 to 20 min" as something negative.
As for the fluids, the picture I had in my mind is offering drinks and keeping drinks available, so they are ingesting fluids at every opportunity. Although "forcing" does imply you are doing something like holding the child down and pouring liquids down their throat, I cannot imagine that is the case. How would making drinks available, having things they like to drink available, offering often etc be negative?
As for the 20 minutes... Time out is an absence of all engagement. It is not supposed to be fun, so 2 minutes of no engagement and separation from anything fun is negative. However, I imagined the 10 to 20 minutes on the toilet as more like sitting and reading together, playing hand games, singing songs, doing a puppet, watching TV or even playing a game on the IPad. 10 to 20 minutes of one on one engagement in a fun activity while sitting is not too much for most 2 to 3 year olds. When I taught pre-school, this was the time factor we often chose for center time and circle time activities at this age. Now, for a child with attention problems, sensory issues or AS - this might be too long and would need to be adjusted as many parenting techniques do.
It would seem to me that the implication is that the wanted behavior is positively reinforced with attention, fun, and praise, while the undesired behavior is redirected and taught with replacement behaviors.
13 Aug 2012, 3:48 pm
It would seem to me that the implication is that the wanted behavior is positively reinforced with attention, fun, and praise, while the undesired behavior is redirected and taught with replacement behaviors.
Yes it is. This is an ABA tecnique. The rinforcement to sit for my son was nutella, so he was happy, but never 20 minutes. It never was needed. When the child pees in an unwanted place he/she is negatively reinforced instead because he/she has to go to the toilet 5 times and without nutella. This is not a good value for him and he stops doing pee outside the potty very soon.
Taht said, I never would apply ABA for my son but wetting pants for a 4 1/2 old boy causes a lot of social issues. There's not special ed in Italy and he's mainstreamed so he has to relate with NT kids.
He's not AS, he has Autism, but I think the problem is the same. He was reinfored peeing in his pants because he loves to take showers and it was exactly what happened when he did it.
13 Aug 2012, 3:51 pm
Keeping a child on the potty for 10-20 seems too long. If I had to be on it that long as a toddler, it be like hours for me because 20 minutes for a small child is a long time. It would make it harder for me to toilet train. Also that can make them grow up to like diapers and bam they are a AB/DL and I have seen people say in that community that is probably why they like diapers. They remember how traumatic toilet training was and how it was forced on them so they have always liked diapers. No one is quite sure what causes the fetish/kink/desire/paraphilia whatever they want to call it.
Unless you want your kid to be a AB/DL, do it. But that can make their life harder such as for getting a relationship, they may be stealing diapers, they may be depressed about it because they can't accept that part of themselves and we have the term "binge and purge cycle" where they hate it so they try and quit and then try go back to wearing them and then they try and quit again so they may toss everything out, all the diapers and baby stuff, then they are back buying them again.
My kid is ready for potty training so I will be re introducing him to the potty again and read him the potty book. He may be ready for real this time and I am expecting him to have accidents. I haven't gotten him training pants yet because I don't know if he will be emotionally ready to sit on the potty and use it. He seems to want my parents to put a diaper on him when he has to go. If he does that with me, I will try and have him sit on the potty but not force it. Plus diapers are easy to take off now and put back on again. They're all velcro. Hopefully he won't be too difficult to train like some kids are. Some NT kids are hard to toilet train too.
Okay if you are doing activities with them as they are sitting on the potty, (some parents keep the potty chair in the same room as them), then I can see it being less traumatic for the child. I had the negative view in my head also, I pictured the mother holding her kid down on the potty in the bathroom and doing nothing. Back in the days parents used to tie their kids down on the potty and I found out the reason why they had trays was to hold the child in it. Now today it's not like that anymore or else they still come with trays. Now today people would say that is abuse. I shave still heard about some parents still tying their kids down on the potty. To me it's always been lazy parenting. The parent can't be arsed to be with their child as they sit on the potty nor can they hold them on it so they tie them on it and leave them there so they can do their thing.
_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.
14 Aug 2012, 7:28 am
As for the fluids, the picture I had in my mind is offering drinks and keeping drinks available, so they are ingesting fluids at every opportunity. Although "forcing" does imply you are doing something like holding the child down and pouring liquids down their throat, I cannot imagine that is the case. How would making drinks available, having things they like to drink available, offering often etc be negative?
The problem with this is it is a matter of perception. brainfizz has a completely different opinion than you. Both of you have different perceptions, experiences, personalities, predjudices, identities, etc. She sees it as harmful and you see it as beneficial. League_Girl says that the person can become a AB/DL. I donot know what AB/DL is. Who is right here and who is wrong? Honestly, I do not know. I've never had to babysit let alone be a father to a child so I do not have enough data to come to a conclusion.
I do not understand your perceptions of how sitting on the toilet and using the bathroom being fun. It is relaxing yes and sometimes I will take an excellent book in to read. Compared to the other things how is sitting on the toilet and using the bathroom fun? Can you try to explain further please if you do not mind?
Again, it is a matter of interpretation. If they have to keep getting up from having fun then wouldn't they want to avoid using the bathroom as much as possible? For one, they could avoid drinking as much fluids once they make the connection. Two, even if they have to use the bathroom they may figure if I don't want to have to go all the time I wont have as many accidents. From this angle, why couldn't it be considered negative reinforcement? What are your premises that support your conclusion that this truthfully works and what are your premises that support your conclusion that the benefits outweigh the costs?
This may or may not work depending on the personality and characteristics of the child. It may produce unintended consequences like for League_Girl.
14 Aug 2012, 7:53 am
Rewarding the child with food in order to keep them sitting on the toilet?
The forcing child to go X amounts of time without the food when siting on the toilet because child had an accident?
That whole method is setting a child up for failure long term.
There are SO many things WRONG with it, I won't bother getting into detail. In the end, it basically comes down to intimidation and training the child like an animal.
Anyways, J's peeing issue is not an accident.
J never wets his pants.
J takes OFF his pants, aims at specific objects.
I have been told by other parents of AS children to NOT use specific words when speaking about my child, such as SPITEFUL. Well, sorry, just because he has a disorder (or his brain functions differently than my own) does NOT mean he is not capable of such things as spite and I do not need to coddle him as if he could never be capable of doing such.
When J gets angry with me, he pees on things. J does not pee on things otherwise. That is spiteful. He does not need to potty learn again, he needs to correct his behavior (or some may look at it as replacing his poor behavior with something more appropriate.)
