Autism and Abstract Reasoning

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The distinction in abstract reasoning and identifying abstract concepts as opposed to abstract/figurative verbal communication is important.

Some adults diagnosed with autistic disorder whose intelligence cannot adequately be measured with standard measures of intelligence that measure verbal intelligence, actually score higher than individuals without autistic disorder, in the Progressive Raven Matrices measure of non-verbal intelligence that measures abstract reasoning and ability for abstract concept identification through visual images instead of abstract/figurative language through verbal measures of intelligence, per the study linked below.

Difficulties with abstract/figurative language are in reference to understanding and communicating the figurative language of metaphors, sarcasm, idioms and other more emotional aspects of verbal communication, which can be impacted in part by difficulties with Alexithymia, a condition present in up to 85 percent of individuals on the spectrum.

Many individuals on the spectrum excel in abstract reasoning and in identifying abstract concepts that may at the same time have substantial difficulties with understanding and communicating abstract/figurative language.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0025372


There is still an ongoing myth of stereotype in some areas that individuals diagnosed with Autism and/or Asperger's syndrome have substantial deficits in abstract reasoning and identifying abstract concepts. Research with alternate means of measuring intelligence has provided evidence that this is not the case, and that it is actually a strength rather than a deficit for many on the spectrum.

It is interesting that Hans Aspergers identified this strength in his 1944 paper describing "Autistic Psychopathy", as summarized in the link below.

http://www.paulcooijmans.com/asperger/a ... rized.html

Seems reasonable to assume that we'd be more analytical than the average bear due to not having the constant social overtones playing around in our heads (no matter our level of verbal ability) -- it would go with the greater ability to focus on details (which we supposedly have), and then comparing them to other details, which would equal an accurate picture of things.

Finding patterns in things would be a strength for us (no matter what the subject matter is).

Put "other", because, how am I supposed to know? I can't speak for other autistics, because I can't read their minds, and I can speak only for myself.

I can say that there are concepts in my brain that I can visualize and think about, but I find extremely difficult to put into words. I've had the experience of reading books about particular topics that gave me the language all at once to translate these things into words, at which point I won't stop writing or talking about them for months straight.

I can relate to that issue ever since I was a small child.

For the longest time I got abstract reasoning confused with abstract language. The word abstract is used in so many different ways, it was difficult for me to wrap my mind around concept identification and concept formation, the two aspects of abstract reasoning.

I suspect my concept identification is much stronger than my concept formation, and I think I remember reading that is a pattern among many people on the spectrum. The Progressive Raven Matrices test, measures strongly for concept identification in fluid intelligence. I think the test is fun but took it somewhere where a credit card was required to get the result, and didn't pursue the results.

Have you ever taken it? I would suspect you would do well with how you describe your thinking process.

There was a stereotype for a long time that people on the spectrum had deficits in abstract reasoning. That stereotype was challenged in 2007 with research that suggested otherwise. The link I provided provides evidence that abstract reasoning is very strong among individuals, on average, on the spectrum.

There would be no reason for you to know this unless you looked at the research I provided, or someone had identified the other stereotype to you at some point in time. It is not something I ever really personally thought about until fairly recently. I identified the word abstract with research and painting instead of reasoning or figurative language for most of my life. I would of have been clueless if I hadn't pursued the research.

There used to be a free version (with instructions in Spanish). I scored ~130 on that. My testing environment was far from ideal (screaming children, adults screaming at children, constant severe overload). I wish I could have seen my score on the more recent pay test.

This is the thread that linked it, but the test seems to be gone now:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt66115.html

Looking around, I found this: http://iqtest.dk/main.swf

I am not sure if it charges or not.

I'm good with abstract reasoning......using words.

I suck at non-verbal abstract reasoning.

My highest IQ sub-test is in "similarities," which measures your ability to think "abstractly" using verbal means. My worst score was in "matrix reasoning," which is pretty much the same as Raven's Progressive Matrices, and measures your ability to think "abstractly" about non-verbal concepts.

So, yes, I can think abstractly. As long as it's with words. But, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I fall closer to NVLD than I do pure autism.

BTW, you visual-spatial folks are fascinating.

That is a good point and makes a lot of sense specific to NVLD, because the performance IQ on standard measures of IQ that actually measures for non-verbal abstract reasoning is often proportionately lower than verbal IQ among those with NVLD. I understand that is one way the learning disorder is screened.

Not too long ago I had a link of the different college majors (general population) and it was interesting that in the sciences, engineering, and mathematics majors the Performance IQ was proportionately much higher than the verbal IQ, as opposed to those in the liberal arts fields such as social science, philosophy, psychology, etc., where the scores of the two types of intelligence were often even.

My understanding is that somewhere close to 50% of individuals diagnosed with Asperger's fit the NVLD symptoms. In the link I provided the individuals with Autistic disorder had relatively higher performance IQ than Verbal IQ on standard measures of intelligence and the individuals with Aspeger's syndrome had relatively higher scores on verbal IQ than performance IQ.

Considering the NVLD connection and Asperger's that makes sense. And of course with the non-verbal issue among autistic disorder individuals it would make sense that their verbal IQ's would be proportionately lower than performance IQ, on average.

I thought it was interesting that the Autistic disorder adults not only outscored the adult individuals with Asperger's syndrome but also outscored the control group of non-autistic people, slightly, with the Raven Progressive matrices test.

But, comparing the autistic disorder children with the autistic disorder adults, it appears in comparison among the two demographics of age that the adults with autistic disorder made an incredible adaptation in life with non-verbal abstract reasoning to perhaps accommodate their difficulties in verbal abilities.

It would stand to reason that many of the Asperger's folks with NVLD characteristics might make some of the same types of adaptions in adulthood with their higher verbal abilities, as their increase in adulthood in the scores from the Raven's test was not nearly as substantial as the adults with Autistic Disorder. The scores were more in alignment with the increase seen among the adult non-autistics.

When IQ polls are done here, there are a lot of folks that mention their Verbal IQ was scored proportionately higher than their performance IQ, and many mention they have difficulties with math which also goes along with NVLD. What I wonder though is how this might effect who might be more motivated to ocmmunicate online as far whether the folks with the higher Verbal IQ might be more interested than those with potentially higher Performance IQ's. I suspect that might be the case for autistic disorder but not so much for Asperger's. which only makes sense anyway because of verbal issues, in general, and autistic disorder.

My understanding is that NVLD is more common in females than males, so I suppose that could play a role online as the greater proportionate numbers of females participating in communication online on the spectrum at about a 1 to 1 ratio here, as compared to the 5 to 1 ratio as assessed in the general population.

But, in general females do participate on facebook at somewhere close to 60% of that demographic, so there appears to be a female lean in social networking, although wrong planet is not like facebook for the prevalence of social chit chat. Reddit has about 80% general male participation and there is not a whole lot of small talk going on there either. Maybe less than here given the full scope of the forums. I suspect more than a few males with Asperger's syndrome or those close to a diagnosis are spending their time there.

Thanks that is the one I used, I believe where there was a charge.

On standard test of IQ do you know if your VQ is as high as your PQ? Obviously you don't have the VQ heavy score, that is associated with NVLD, but wondering if they are balanced.

I don't know.

I found out I scored 129 on the matrices, and 138 on a separate online VIQ test that was not normed to any particular standards. I suspect both scores are actually fairly similar, wherever they would end up in an actual testing environment. When I tested as genius in the past, my mother was not informed of any particularly egregious discrepancies.

On one online IQ test that is supposed to be normed against WAIS, I believe my visual and spatial scores exceeded my verbal score, but that test had 30 questions and was not as rigorous as an actual WAIS.

Here's where I posted my scores based on the online test normed against WAIS:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp3853174.html

This test: http://www.intelligencetest.com

I found it interesting when compared to the general population that had taken the test, that verbal was my second lowest.

I got 60/60 on raven's test and 143 on the flash iq test. Standard raven's test seemed too easy to be intelligence test. Second test was harder, but these non-verbal tests are relaxing for me compared to verbal tests. It's like I can solve the problems in my native environment instead of translating between verbal and non-verbal all the time.

If you've taken it, how did you do on block design?

The flash test I linked seemed easier to me than the Spanish test that's no longer online, but I didn't see the score so I couldn't say for sure. The only real difference was that my environment was quieter and less stressful.

l've seen it go both ways on this forum. For SURE.

l chalked it up to hemispheric dominance which can differ among all types of autistics. Probably oversimplified, but l think it explains some of the other seemingly paradoxical traits you see among some with AS. ln "classic" AS this does seem to be an impairment, l think there's more than one manifestation of AS though.

When you are able to grasp abstractions you are probably less literal, more intuitive with social interaction, and more likely to slip under the radar or possibly be a forever borderline Aspie. Which isn't bad, lol.

what say you?

I thought it would almost have to be similar since you reported the genius level IQ. Would you agree that genius level IQ is IQ above 160. I have heard that stated before, but I'm not sure who determines that standard, as far as IQ goes.