Touching, female perspective ...

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Hello all,

I'm a middle aged guy (late 40s) who recently met with a younger woman (30s) for a hook-up. We had done it once before and everything was fine. Given some of thing things that transpired this time, I have come to think that she may be an Aspie. I knew almost nothing about AS beforehand and have hastily done some research; almost ALL of which have confirmed my suspicions. Very fast cadence to her speech, going on and on and on in conversation without even caring I was there (one sided), talking about inappropriate subjects, etc. And 2 big ones. The hand-flapping; I hate to say it but it didn't start until she (and I) started getting undressed. And then as she lay naked waiting for me to join her ... it was really going on. I was thinking .... what the ??? By then, needless to say, I was committed so I joined her and it ended up being awesome, awesome sex. I was later to find out that many times the hand flapping happens when an AS is happy/excited ... well I guess so ! !! Anyway, she had no problem with the sex part (multiple orgasms). Then after we were done she was going on and on and on again. She told me about her mother and step father moving away because her much younger sister has Aspergers and they wanted her in a special school that they don't have around here. She made a big deal out of her sister couldn't get a HS Diploma here because of the schools. And from the description of her mother, I suspect that she was a high functioning AS too (Savant with multiple degrees and failed relationships, etc). There were others things as well. Lets just say that I went home and started doing some research (this was yesterday).

Anyways, as you can imagine I have lots of questions ... like just what the hell I am getting myself into. But I do have one big question. From what I read it appears that many AS people have "touch" issues as it is very uncomfortable for them and many AS' are a-sexual as well. She was neither; in spades. And specifically seemed to crave human touch. And I don't mean just sex; I mean kissing, licking, rubbing, hugging, touching, massage, etc. She just ate it up and I was only too happy to do it. Are there AS people who behave this way, crave human touch ?

Oh, I should mention that I am divorced and she is apparently never married (which would again perhaps imply AS given their difficulties establishing relationships). She is intelligent; she graduated from HS, did college for a bit, took a lot of time off, and now is going back to get her degree. She has a dog for companionship.

So questions: Is it possible that she does not know she is an Aspie ? Perhaps a highly functioning undiagnosed one? Is is possible she didn't realize she was doing the hand flapping thing (sorry if I'm being crude , this is all new to me). And I realize that there is a wide spectrum of AS and many times people (all people) live in denial and don't want to face their issues; this is normal. Is there any way I could politely make an inquiry? Anything that would possibly remove all doubt without being insulting. I have even thought that perhaps the reason she brought up her sister was to bring AS out in the open ... because she is one and if I can't deal with that then don't bother calling again. But from what I've read I doubt a real AS would be socially adept or manipulative enough to drop hints and expect me to figure it out. Again, she has the AS trait of being honest; perhaps too much so. I thought maybe I could bring up AS again the next time we talk and say something along the lines of "I did a little research on AS and found out that it is hereditary and runs in families .... " (so if your sister is, then perhaps you are too?) but if she is a true AS she wouldn't get the nuance of that either. ???

Perhaps some females on the forums here could enlighten me on the female perspective and what I can expect. Have any of the ladies here been on the opposite side of this situation?

And as far as my intentions, I don't have a clue. Frankly, we've gotten together twice basically for sex and its been fantastic (and yes we practiced safe sex) but I really don't know this girl at all. I do know that I am a not mean person and don't want to use or hurt her or lead her on either. Ditto for myself; I don't want to get hurt or end up in a difficult situation either.

Sorry for rambling on and on ... I guess I'm just very confused right now.

Please no haters ! !!
Please no haters ! !!
Please no haters ! !!

Well, I'll give this a shot. Yes, touch avoidance is certainly not universal. It can also come and go within the same person over time.

Yes, it is possible she doesn't know. I got to my mid twenties withot knowing, and might still not know if it weren't for a colleague who's a developmental psychologist. Not knowing doesn't mean denial. It's hard to tell when you are very high functioning when it's AS and when it's being shy or introverted or not socially skilled, etc.

Yes, it's possible she didn't know about the hand flapping. I don't always know about my stims unless someone calls attention to them.

I don't know if mentioning her sister was supposed to be a hint to you or not, but we are not all completely socially inept, and I don't think that behavior was necessarily manipulative in any case.

Should you bring it up? Ask yourself why you feel the need to. She's a great lover, and that's what you are to each other. If you want more, then that might be an appropriate time for a discussion. Until then, why does it matter if she is autistic? The only thing I would want to make sure is what I would ask if she was NT. That is, what are her expectations? You wouldn't want to hurt her, so I think the "right" discussion might be what both of your expectations are for the future of the relationship. If both of you want something more than sex, then her "status" MIGHT be more relevant.

just my 200 cents

Sensory sensitivities affect all of us differently.
I love touch, it's extremely addictive for me since my senses are heightened enough to make it feel amazing - although I cannot handle massage as that is simply too painful. I am also hypersexual. The issue with AS is it can go either way - touch can be painful for one, and addictive for another. Same with sexuality - some of us are asexual, while others are hypersexual. So yes - definitely there are those of us who crave touch much more than a normal person would.

It's very possible she doesn't know she is aspie - she probably doesn't realise how she appears to others.
She probably didn't realise she was hand flapping - I do it when nervous, happy or excited and I never realise I am until it's too late, although thankfully it's rare now.
You could ask her when her sister was diagnosed. You could ask her if she went through an evaluation for AS or not after her sister was diagnosed - and open the conversation gently from there. Most women only get diagnosed when they show the quite severe form of AS to the point it very obviously interferes with their functioning to the point that they need help with basic life - most of us who are not in that category get overlooked completely. What she considers AS is probably her sister, so she probably hasn't considered that she herself could have it - by comparison she probably thinks she is normal. Just ask gently if she has considered it.
She wouldn't drop hints and expect you to get it - nor should you drop hints and expect her to get it.

It sounds similar to when I got together with the guy I'm dating now - the difference was he asked about specific things that I couldn't answer without mentioning AS so I had to tell him on the first date. It being out in the open has helped enormously - at least he can ask if I am doing something weird why. To be able to speak freely about it is huge - it's saved many, many misunderstandings, too many to count in fact.

The hardest thing for you is probably going to be learning that you can't rely on facial expression or body language to get a point across to her. Nor can you expect her to know or read your moods or emotions - just because she can't read you doesn't mean she doesn't care. You will have to do it verbally and directly. You cannot drop hints and expect her to get what you mean - or act passive aggressive, sulk etc - because she will not know what she has done wrong at all. If you speak about abstracts, you may confuse her. if you confuse her, just make it more specific so she can understand. So you will have to be very verbal, direct and specific when dealing with her..

Kjas, it sounds like you and my new friend share many traits so your insight was extremely valuable ! Thank you ! And your comments have helped me believe that I am reading the situation spot on; so that has helped me feel better too.

So being hypersexual with a heightened sense of touch that they find pleasurable are indeed symptoms of some female Aspies; no wonder the sex is so good with her. Your boyfriend must be a very lucky fellow, LOL ! But of course there are the communications issues so that makes it really difficult at the same time. I already know that being very direct is going to be a huge problem for me. For example, her excessive talking was making me uncomfortable and a normal person would have picked up on that. But an AS person wouldn't; and of course she didn't. Just what am I supposed to say ? "You're talking too fast please slow down and you are talking way too much ... give me a chance !". I wish I could claim that my communication skills are perfect but unfortunately they're far from it; I'm not that diplomatic and would be afraid that I would come across as just being mean or even offensive. Not good !

I think she was already in high school when her younger sister was diagnosed because they are very far apart in ages. I have no idea if she has been evaluated for AS or not. I do think this woman knows she has some issues though; like jobs, relationships, etc because she struggles with them; but really doesn't know why. Then again, for all I know maybe she already knows.

For now our relationship is based on sex; she knows that and is ok with that. And it works for me. If it starts to go anywhere else I will have to tread very carefully.

Kjas, thanks again for your comments ... they were very helpful.

Very simply - if you aren't direct, it's basically the same thing as not speaking or communicating at all because she isn't going to get the message.
If it makes it easier for you, you could distract her physically first. Kissing her will shut her up enough for you to be able to speak.

Take it as a chance to practise being direct, responsible and gentle. Keep it to "I feel" statements - without any "you" or blaming in them. And try asking questions. Or offering a solution - or ask her a question that means she has to come up with a solution or at least give some ideas. Try "I like listening to you but sometimes there are time I feel like I am not being heard. Would it be possible for you to slow down and give a break occasionally so that I may speak?"

If she is older then chances are she was not a child when AS was included in the DSM, which was in 1994. Therefore she would not have been diagnosed or evaluated - and therefore probably doesn't know.

You don't have to tread carefully - just remember not to apply NT expectations or judgements to her, be direct and specific and attempt to put yourself in her shoes during any misunderstandings and you will be absolutely fine. The first two will prevent misunderstandings from happening and the last one will help when you do have them.

Well, I met with my new friend last night and it was different. Some very minor hand flapping and some weird facial expressions during sex. Frankly, if I wasn't expressly looking for it (hand flapping) I wouldn't have noticed. Everybody makes weird looking faces during sex; least that is what I've heard and been my experience. Speech was also much better. We had a long conversation and her pace was normal and it had a mostly normal ebb/flow. I would say that if I hadn't been looking for symptoms I wouldn't have found any. Not what I was expecting, but was glad it happened.

I have read about "meltdowns". Does this sort of thing happen outside a "meltdown"; that perhaps they will have a bad day or something will set them off and their symptoms will be very bad for a short period while at most other times are barely noticeable at all ?

I did bring up the subject of her sister and Aspergers and it was quite interesting. My new friend is currently enrolled at a local university in the Masters program. In Psychology. I had misunderstand her before as she did finish her degree and now is going back for a masters; not to complete an unfinished degree. And yes she has studied some on Autism and Aspergers. The conversation we had was quite civil she didn't get mad or anything. It went like this.

Me: Aspergers is genetic, isn't it ?" Her: No, its not.
Me: Sure it is, its hereditary. It runs in families. Her: No, its not.
Me: Sure it is. I saw a documentary where a family had 3 boys and 2 of the boys were diagnosed. One had Aspergers and one had Autism and one was completely normal. Her: Well, that is unusual; must have been a random thing.

Me: I thought almost all people diagnosed with Aspersgers were boys: Her: No, a lot of girls get it too.
Me: I though I saw somewhere that there are 10 times as many boys as girls: Her: No that's wrong. There are more boys than girls, but not nearly that many.

So I asked her what DID cause Aspergers and she said that nobody really knew. She said they have all kinds of tests for other genetic diseases which can be done in the womb so if you are carrying a baby with one of them you will know beforehand, but there is no Genetic Marker or test for Aspergers. She then went on to say that its her personal opinion that its Immunization shots that are given to babies that is causing all the children these days to become Aspies. It was the Vaccinations that are causing it. I expressed some skepticism and she said it was because the babies brains were very malleable at the young ages they are getting the shots and something in the shots causes the brains to get re-wired and they are never really the same after that. But it may not be noticed until years later when the symptoms show up. She said something about Mercury being in the shots or being used to preserve the shots or something. That Mercury is a poison so maybe that is causing it. I said haven't kids betting getting vaccinations for decades, so how come this didn't start showing up 50 years ago ? She said that they now combine several vaccinations into 1 shot instead of 3-4 separate ones because its cheaper that way and they never used to use Mercury either. So the shots today are different from what they used to do.

I don't know if what she said is true or not; so she may very well be right but it sure seemed like there was a lot of denial going on too. Doesn't run in families, doesn't afflict mostly boys, etc. Then again, I'm a newbie at all things Aspie; so what do I know.

Oh, she did say that her sister was diagnosed at age 4 and has severe development difficulties. She didn't learn to talk until around age 6 and still has difficulties speaking today. She said that the minute she opens her mouth to talk; it is very obvious she isn't normal (this was in context of some kids teasing her sister because she talks funny). I know that Aspergers can vary quite a bit so her sister is obviously on the severe side.

So that's an update. Sex was good and we had a nice long talk. And everything was pretty much normal. I still don't know her exact age. I "think" I'm about 15 years older than her which would likely be an issue long term. Especially if she wants to have kids. I "think" she is in her early 30s so if she does want kids she'd probably have to start pretty quickly. She did say that all her friends her age already have kids and she's the only one childless. I'm pushing 50 I'm not interested in having babies at my age. So just gonna take it day to day. It was nice last night; not at all like the previous time which had made me very uncomfortable.

The vaccine theory was in the early 90's and has now been proven incorrect.

Autism is indeed genetic, although there are other contributing factors - Australia recently developed the first test to predict Autism, which many of us were very unhappy about. When they created a test for Down Syndrome some years ago, many of those babies were then aborted at alarming rates - as many as 85% or more in the cases that were tested. There are many of us who fear the same thing with happen with Autism.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/he ... 6472770465

About the boys VS girls thing - it does affect boys more, but since all the studies have been done on boys, it is only their symptoms and coping mechanisms which have been recognised. Girls are overlooked and are badly underdiagnosed because they show slightly different symptoms and coping mechanisms, or often misdiagnosed with BPD instead. Although the official records state every 10 boys per 1 girl have Asperger's, I daresay it is much closer to 2 boys per 1 girl due to the lack of study and recognition of girls.

Yes, one can overload without having a meltdown. She was probably not as nervous this time, hence showing less symptoms at the time.
We do have our good days and bad days. Our symptoms will tend to be worse or more noticeable on our bad days.

And by the way most of what they are taught in general psychology on Autism is incorrect or extremely badly misinformed. I have read some utterly ridiculous things in official psychology textbooks on Autism. The information on it was that bad and inaccurate, that when I did my undergraduate degree in psychology, I did not recognise that I myself had autism, despite it had made my life extremely difficult. It is very poorly understood by psychologists, even not well understood by those who specialise in it. I can think of a handful of people who specialise in it who have an extremely good, knowledgeable and more importantly, accurate understanding of it.

I don't think you need to worry about the kids thing. She may not want them - even if she does, she may recognise that it would be very difficult for her to be a parent.

So I guess that's what it was; an "overload". Earlier you mentioned getting your AS out in the open with your boyfriend right away; I can see now why that was so important. I had no idea what was going on that last time ! !! Frankly, I think I did pretty darn good in handling it; but in retrospec it was NOT FAIR for her to spring that on me when I had no idea what was happening. You know, a lot of guys would have just fled and never come back. No, not "a lot"; almost all of them. Doesn't matter how good the sex was either. Luckily I was smart enough to head to the internet for some research and ended up here. If it were not for that; I wouldn't have gone back either.



I had thought of the same thing. If she is prone to meltdowns or "overloads" frequently, it would be quite scary for her to consider being a parent and be responsible for something as helpless as a newborn. What if the baby was an Aspie child with symptoms as severe as her younger sister ? That would scare the hell out of anyone.

I hate to say it but writing this response has gotten me very upset. And that is to spoil the good news. I emailed her after our last get together and just got a response. She enjoyed our sex, snuggling and conversation just as much as I did and we are getting together again in a few days. So why is it that after writing the stuff above, I feel like crap ? And I feel bad for putting this in the Women's forum now; because its got to be horribly difficult for women dealing with these issues.

On a personal note, Kjas ... do you find it unusual you are so similar to my new friend ? What we discussed earlier (touch, sexuality) and now even the same major in college and going on to advanced degrees too. Did you finish your education? Do you mind if I ask where you ended up (major) ? And I have to say you are the most mature 23 year old I have ever spoken too. So much so, I have a hard time believing it. And thanks again for your input, it is very much appreciated. Just wish I didn't feel so sh***y right now.

It sounded like an overload to me, an emotional overload.

Not fair?
You are assuming that she knows, because you know.
But by all the evidence you have provided so far - she obviously has no idea that she has AS, so you can't really blame her for not telling you something she does not know.

Since she sees her sister and thinks that level of severity (very severe) is what AS is, rather than her level (which seems to be moderate). That coupled with the fact that AS wasn't even in the DSM when she was a child means that she is one of those who have been overlooked. Making her aware of AS may not be the best case either, as she may simply go into stronger denial about it. Unfortunately aspies have to be allowed to find and work out these things out themselves - giving them a small nudge in the right direction won't hurt though.

But yes, things like this are exactly why it's best to be upfront if you know about them.

Some time ago someone I was dating (not the current one) invited me to a house party - 30 people, none of them I knew and none of his close friends were going (if they had of gone I would have been able to deal). I warned him this was not a good idea - I openly and flat out told him I do not do well with people I don't know and that I did not want to go, especially if his close friends wouldn't be there. He did not take me seriously. It was only after we got there and he understood by seeing it, exactly what I meant. Despite telling him, warning him more than once, he did not come back after that. That was one of my rare aspie fails, it usually isn't that bad except for 1 in every 2 years or so. Like most, he didn't take me seriously, didn't ask questions, and made bad and incorrect assumptions and ran away needlessly based on those incorrect assumptions - I can deal with most social events, this was a rare one off, whereas he assumed I couldn't. And yes, that is what most men do.



It is not to overloads that are problematic, or even the meltdowns. Usually it is the shutdowns which are truly problematic when it comes to parenting. We have many AS women who manage to be a parent quite well, even if they are unconventional - in some areas they are much better than NT moms. But it is certainly not for all of us. Some of us would not be capable of it. Others of us might be capable, but it would still not be necessarily the best idea. Although it is genetic, when they are with an NT, a child has a 1 in 4 chance of having ASC and it would probably be her moderate version, or a mild version of AS.

I would not focus on "what ifs" right now. Focus on the present. Enjoy your time with her.
If at some point you in future you decide you are going to be around her for a while in future, it would be best to read "22 Things a Woman with Asperger's Syndrome Wants Her Partner To Know" by Rudy Simone. It covers all the basics very well and will probably give you some groundwork.

Not really. Many women with AS get interested in psychology. There are quite a few on the boards who are also hypersexual and very touchy (although most of them except one or two haven't been posting lately). I started and finished my first undergraduate degree in Psychology when I was very young. I choose the wrong thing because I was young and didn't really know what I wanted to do, although I work in psych now (here you don't need to do a masters, you choose to do 2 years under a professional or a masters). Now am doing a another undergraduate degree in Political Science. I will do my masters at some point, and possibly a PhD in between working in the field.

So now you know why I was so upset last night. What you say is exactly true; she probably doesn't know. So how can I blame her for something she isn't even aware of ? But that doesn't make it right to dump the situation on me with no forewarning at all though. So its just crappy all around.


Being allowed to discover and work out their own issues applies to everyone not just Aspies. Giving a small nudge will have to be done carefully. Mentioning the Australian genetic test would surely get her attention. If it comes up and there is an appropriate time; I may bring that up.


I hate to ask, but can you elaborate on what a "Shutdown" is and how I would deal with that ?


That's some good advice there; if this lasts I may very well take a look at that book.


Was wondering if that was the case. Seems kind of reasonable. Intelligent, somewhat obsessive at times, don't fit in with others and not really sure why ... so go into Psychology to figure out what's going on. Makes sense.

Nobody is blaming you or her - it's situational. And when it's situational, you're right, it's a sh*tty place to be for both of you and it's not eithers fault.
She doesn't want to overload, and you don't want to be there when she is overloading. It's a crappy situation.

Oh no - you misunderstand. While it applies to everyone, aspies are 100 times worse when it comes to this than your average NT. I have seen older teenagers and young adults get the official diagnosis because they were forced to by their parents and then spend the next 10 years in very strongly in complete and utter denial.

A shutdown is when the brain quite literally, starts shutting down. Too much stress and that's it's only option - sometimes people shutdown after they meltdown, or it can happen on it's own. It's usually the brains last line of defense. It means that the person will lose functionality, lose skills and lose the ability to do things, sometimes even very basic things. These include multi-hour and multi-day events. This can include losing the ability to speak and/or losing the ability to move at all. In children with ASC it has been observed that during a shutdown, they will literally fall asleep - even though they do not want to, and have no control over it. The same can happen with adults. Sometimes shutdown last for hours and sometimes they can last for days. There's not much you can do except get her home (if she is out somewhere) and leave her to her own devices.

What you said is pretty much it. But many of them are also used to being outsiders and have a lot of empathy for those who are outsiders or alter abled or who have mental conditions themselves. Some of them are very talented, especially with children or at designing group programs. Learn enough about psychology and you can actually perform useful functions - like helping NT parents, siblings or partners understand those with ASC in their lives and giving them options and solutions to try - essentially serving as a kind of translator of sorts.