Mini skirts, feminism and equality

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Please excuse me, I'm not very good at putting ideas into words, but I've been thinking about this and wondered what others thought.

I've been following some feminist threads on twitter because I like being treated with respect and I am all for building female self-esteem. I've noticed that a common trend is that women want to dress sexily, but without receiving unwanted male attention. It's ok if a guy they fancy gives them attention, as long as he's not groping them without permission, but you, yes you, weirdo on the train, don't look at me or I'll gouge your eyes out! Fair enough, no one wants some random guy stroking their leg on the train to work, but why advertise what you don't want to give away? Why not cover up the bits that men want to look at and touch? Wouldn't that signal that you don't want them to look at or touch those out-of-bounds areas?

I will be the first to admit that I don't have the legs for a mini skirt. But I don't understand them from a pratical point of view. If I bend over I want to be safe in the knowledge that no one will see my underpants. My shortest skirts are knee length for that reason. But women are complaining that they should be able to wear short skirts as a matter of gender equality. Is it equality? Men don't feel the need to show their thighs off on a night out. I don't see any men in the city centre on a Saturday night in short shorts or mini sarongs. So is it really equality or have modern women been groomed by the fashion industry into dressing the way men want them to under the clever guise of gender equality?

Do I misunderstand because I am a practical dresser rather than a fashionista?

I dont think, that anything is a cause for misbehaving. If a men wears shorts without T-Shirt because its hot, there is nothing bad about having a small look from the side and dream on. But openly staring at him his rude, and excusing my misbehaving with making him responsible by inventing dumb excuses like "But the only cause why he wears shorts without a T-shirt on hot day, is because HE WANTED me to behave rude!" is extra rude and super stupid.

There is a rule of behavior and its simply: "Dont stare at people. Dont point with fingers at people." There is nothing bad about a little daydreaming in your head, but people are no animals in zoo.

It's not the same. Restaurant signs say "no shoes, no shirt, no service" wheras if a woman wears a mini skirt she'll be allowed into the restaurant.

Men seem to be wired differently to women though, is it nature or nurture? I'm not sure. I understand that men will look and that they are attracted to women, so I dress in a way that doesn't make them want to look more. I don't wear tight or low tops to work etc. because I want to be taken seriously in my male dominated work place.

Why do women want to wear clothes that appeal to men's sexual desire in every day situations? I don't understand it. Sometimes I wonder if I'm asexual.

The key word is "unwanted" - obviously, there is no objection when an attractively-dressed woman receives wanted attention.

It's a lure, such that it attracts attention from all kinds of men (and women), and the woman can then choose whom to favor from a larger pool of eligible suitors.

It's also a trap. If a man gives unwanted attention to a woman, then he's a "creep" or a "pervert", and can risk arrest if he persists. If he doesn't give wanted attention, then he's either "dense" or "gay" (but at least he can't be arrested for it).

My question is: How is a man supposed to know when his attention is wanted, and when he is expected to stay away?

You are not asexual, you are simply obeying. So its about normal cloth, but because of rude misbehaving people you do not longer dare to wear specific cloths because these people excused therir rude behaviour with "But I was forced to behave rude, because I am a chimp, and you wear this and that and that makes chimps automatically stare at you." You simply believe it, and now you tell us "But because I dont want mens attention I now dress myself so that even rude men without behaviour are not forced to stare at me."

No. Men are no chimps and even if you jumped in front opf them naked, bouncing your boobs no men is forced to stare at you. There is also no different link or whatever. You can think that there was a reason, why I called one of my companies workers "The Cola Light men." He simply was veeeeeeery beautiful, and gave me because of this many reasons of daydreaming. ^^ So yes, this is the part you cant help. But my muscles are still under the control of my brain, and it is me deciding if I want to stare at a sexy guy with open mouth like an idiot, and then blame him for me acting like a idiot, or if I behave myself.

I normally wear whats in front of my cloth furniture. ^^ So because of me working on construction sites its normally quite prude, but if I am climbing around a ladder and lean forward or get sweated because its hot, it is still no excuse for anyone to stare rudely at me.

Only few women like gangbangs, so I think most of them simply want not to draw the attention of men but simply the attention of A man. If you are the chosen one - be happy. If you are not the chosen one - be happy as well, but dont be rude and stare and dont be more rude to excuse your behavement with "I am Sorry, she forced me with her magic powers to act like a chimp." We are humans, we are in control of our bodies and we are able to think about our behavement.

And even for people that wont accept that they are no chimps there are reasons, not to behave as one. So sure I could stare at every sexy guy in small male bathtrousers (european style) like an idiot and yell around things like "Wuuhhh, nice wiener you got there!". But that would only lead to them wearing boxer shorts. And this would be a very sad thing. So lets all be polite, and simply enjoy ourselfs silently, then we will be able to do so in the future as well. ^^

Fnord wrote:

In my ideal world we would determine these things clearly and verbally not through dressing up and social signals. Mostly because I can't read social signals and I feel stupid when I dress up.

I'm a hypocrite btw, I've just remembered the time I was caught by this handsome, black footballer, staring at him with his shirt off. He really did have the most beautiful coloured, perfect smooth skin and toned body and I would have loved to touch him. I didn't, of course. I kept my hands to myself. Although he did smile when he saw me, so I'm not sure the attention was unwanted. But my point is I wouldn't have given him that attention if he'd kept his shirt on.

Schneekugel wrote:

That would be absolutely perfect! I wish we were all like that.

But the sad reality is that some men will behave like idiots and I choose to practice damage control with my clothes to avoid their unwanted attention.

Bad news for you: Body and eye language. (Yop, I suck at it as well.)

I agree with you at some degree, but the thing is, that its not natural what we think to be sexy, but its social. So as example europeans are used to some topless women on beaches, not every women does so, but its rather normal. Because of it being normal, people dont start to think about if these women do so to draw your attention. If you would do so on an US beach, where people are not used to, people wouldnt think of it being normal, but instead believe the woman wanted to draw attention.

So every society has its own normality. So as example in my country 80 years ago it was not common for woman to show their hair open, if not for special celebrities. So we are a christian country, so religion was not the cause. But people simply were much more outside in earlier times, and many women worked in the garden, and to avoid your hair getting full of knots and soil you normally protected your hair. So you rarely saw woman with open hair, and it was beyond normally. With the change of times, that lead to todays situation were only few woman are outside the whole day or are forced to work on their fields, the necesitty for hair cover is gone, so all woman now show their hair, and to see them is nothing special anymore.

If we would gather all woman and tell ourselves: "We dont want men to stare anylonger at us! Because of it, no women will from now on denie mini skirts and all our skirts will cover at least the knees!" then there will be woman that have long skirts, skirts that are a bit longer as the knee and skirts that cover at least the knees. And because of the lacking of mini skirts as extreme beyond normality, then suddenly skirts that cover at least the knees will be the new sexy extreme. Its the same with cloths in radical muslimic countries. So the sight of a naked woman leg IS there really highly sexual, simply because it is an complete extreme there, when all other woman are wearing clothbags from head to toe.

So I dont have any hyper sexy mini skirts that are for festivities, but if its really hot out there in summer, I like to wear some sloppy short beach dresses, for no other reason but because its hot. The thing is: I only can wear them rather normal because of other woman helping me to make the sight of it normal. If I was the only one wearing these, I would draw attention with it. So its important to keep at least an acceptable normality and not always give in into someone "But you were responsible for me misbehaving." because if we always give in, in 2 centuries we will be wearing clothbags from head to toe with some misbehaving men, telling us we want to draw their attention by showing our hand joints. ^^

I only can repeat: Its also for men a good thing, not to act rude when they meet a random women, that they think she is nice dressed. Simply because if they will offend her, she wont wear such stuff anymore. If I have my beachdresses in summer, I dont have problems that maybe there are some men, that have their private thoughts. This isnt harming someone in anyway. But I am very shy, and if men talked to me because of me dressing this way, it would annoy me, and I would feel myself forced to change my cloths. Which again would annoy me, because beachdresses are simply a wonderful thing when its really, really hot. (There are rarely buildings with climate control in my country, I dont like it anyway.) So lets all be nice to each other and dream silently, gives me the advantage of having propper cloths for the weather and giving some men the advantage of daydreaming. Benefits for all. ^^

This sums it up for me. It's the difference between a meaningless glance, or someone holding an entire conversation with your breasts...

People dress the way they dress for a variety of reasons. Maybe a woman wearing something tight or revealing might be wearing it for reasons other than male attention like for comfort or because they think that dressing like that makes them look good.

Like if I wore short shorts I wouldn't be wearing them for men to stare at my legs, I'd be wearing them because it's hot out.

I have long hair. It's that way because I like it. In some countries I'd be expected to cover that up. I wear it long and loose because that's how I like it, not to attract the attention of men or to get comments from random strangers which I get sometimes.

To whom?

Themselves? Then it is pure vanity.

Other women? Then it may have more to do with pride.

Men? Well, that puts us right back where we started, doesn't it?

I have to try not to stare at people who are obviously showing themselves off. I know it's rude. They're showing themselves off as a kind of power-trip, I think. They want you to want to look but not be able to look because of social convention. If you're really unattractive to them (as I often am), then they get annoyed because they don't want to play that game with you. Knowing I'm no oil painting, I have to avert my eyes ASAP.

That said, in hot weather it is more practical to wear less. When it's really hot, it's less of a stupid game.

Power-trip or ego-boost ... a game is still a game.

Only arrogant people play this "game".

I don't think so. Sometimes insecure people play it. Some people play it because they think they should be playing it (a lot of girls have a pressure on them to be sexy).