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Ganondox
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04 May 2013, 11:05 am

By my ethics even white lies are immoral, and here is why:

White lies IMO are used to resolve conflict in the short term, but create more problems in the wrong run. Sure, you save their feelings for a moment, but you deny them the truth, and because they don't have the truth they can't fix their problems. Things are only going to get worse in the long run. Also, if they find out you are going to hurt them twice: once for the truth, and twice for your deception. By lying about it you proved that you disapproved of whatever aspect, so even if they wouldn't have found it offensive if you just told the truth they are probably going to find it offensive now. It will also break trust. If people know you aren't always honest they might get suspicious when you compliment them, and thus the effect of the white lie is negated. Honesty might sting in the short run, but in the long run, people want an honest person to relie on, when they actually want the truth. It makes the compliments mean all the more.

Now, I'm not saying a blunt delivery is the best thing. You should try to soften the effect. Instead of telling lying compliments, try to find something you genuinely like instead and compliment that. Also, with friendly criticism a well known tactic is the sandwich delivery: start with a positive, have a negative in the middle, and end with a positive. That way they will be open to criticism because they won't immediately become defensive, you still tell them what they need to know, and you end on an uplifting note. I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do, but the best course of action often isn't the easiest. (though it's probably not the hardest either....)


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ruveyn
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04 May 2013, 11:17 am

"No comment" is better than a well intentioned untruth.

I believe the main virtue to be cultivated is truthfulness and avoiding evasion.

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04 May 2013, 7:49 pm

Ganondox wrote:
By my ethics even white lies are immoral, and here is why:

White lies IMO are used to resolve conflict in the short term, but create more problems in the wrong run. Sure, you save their feelings for a moment, but you deny them the truth, and because they don't have the truth they can't fix their problems.

I'll just keep it short and work with this much.
Lies are a necessity.
I lie and and will continue to lie when appropriate as long as I'm part of society.
Why? Because some people just have to be lied to in order to protect them, others, and maybe even yourself from their over-energetic reckless stupidly.

Managers (any bureaucrat) typically LOVE to be lied to because all too often the truth is just too cumbersome, embarrassing, inconvenient, and may cause them more work.
My manager prefers lies on many matters. Our director adores lies and God help you if you tell the truth when a nice lie would have been easier for her dumb ass to accept.
When they really want the truth, and it does happen when the sh!t is about to hit the fan, they will ask for the truth in no uncertain terms.
All previous lies you've told are always forgiven because the last thing they want is a cessation of lying. This is not a isolated case.

Sometimes I like to be lied to just so I don't have to deal with the truth.
Of course we like to claim to be honorable and disdainful of lying but lets face it; if we told and received only the absolute truth on everything we'd soon be adrift in a sea of sh!t. :(
Think about it.


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Keni
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04 May 2013, 9:36 pm

There are always exceptions to the rule.
In some cases it is cruel not to lie. eg

Someone with Alzheimers cannot remember that their spouse has died.
To tell them the truth each day will make them relive the grief as if it had just happened. To say that they will be back soon reassures them.

A young child's grandparent has died in terrible pain from cancer.
They ask what happened, you tell them that they died in their sleep. What purpose would it serve to traumatise the child further?



Ganondox
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04 May 2013, 10:39 pm

Keni wrote:
There are always exceptions to the rule.
In some cases it is cruel not to lie. eg

Someone with Alzheimers cannot remember that their spouse has died.
To tell them the truth each day will make them relive the grief as if it had just happened. To say that they will be back soon reassures them.

A young child's grandparent has died in terrible pain from cancer.
They ask what happened, you tell them that they died in their sleep. What purpose would it serve to traumatise the child further?


Well does are certain situations were the truth isn't important in the long run. I was referring more to false compliments that bear more permanence.


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Keni
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05 May 2013, 1:26 am

Ok, sorry I misunderstood :)



Ganondox
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05 May 2013, 5:54 am

Keni wrote:
Ok, sorry I misunderstood :)


N'aww, I didn't actually explain it, so what you said is understandable and relevant.


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boywonder
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05 May 2013, 6:38 am

So much state sponsored garbage dumbs down the masses. Global intelligence levels could easily be 5-10x's higher than present



ruveyn
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05 May 2013, 8:47 am

Keni wrote:
There are always exceptions to the rule.
In some cases it is cruel not to lie. eg

Someone with Alzheimers cannot remember that their spouse has died.
To tell them the truth each day will make them relive the grief as if it had just happened. To say that they will be back soon reassures them.

A young child's grandparent has died in terrible pain from cancer.
They ask what happened, you tell them that they died in their sleep. What purpose would it serve to traumatise the child further?


One need not tell the truth (in some situations). All one need do is NOT tell lies.

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05 May 2013, 8:52 am

In my family white lies are necessary, immoral or not.

Though usually there isn't an issue of telling the white lie causing someone not to solve their problems, its more so they don't try to butt in and solve your problem in a way you don't like.


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LKL
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05 May 2013, 3:26 pm

Ganondox, you might enjoy the book 'Lying' by Sam Harris.



Janissy
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05 May 2013, 6:08 pm

LKL wrote:
Ganondox, you might enjoy the book 'Lying' by Sam Harris.


...but you might not enjoy the movie The Invention of Lying by Ricky Gervais which premises white lies as the foundation of human happiness.



ruveyn
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05 May 2013, 8:04 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
In my family white lies are necessary, immoral or not.

.


What would happen if you held your silence or just said "no comment"?



Tensu
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10 May 2013, 10:30 pm

I'm a big fan of the technicality. I don't lie, but I only give people as much of the truth as they need to hear.