Theory of mind deficits working out both ways?

Post Reply New Topic

Something that came to my mind just now. We know that aspies have difficulty empathising with people (or if you will, experiencing theory of mind deficits), but can't we same the same of the NT understand of aspie behaviour - that NTs aren't prepared to empathise with aspies?

Sure, but who cares? The NT's certainly don't, and they outnumber you 50 to 1.

Remember that there's a lot of unspoken subtext in psychology; one important bit of unspoken psychology is that "normal is normative". NTs don't *have* to empathize with aspies, because aspies are deviant. In fact, empathizing with deviance is deviant. And deviance is bad, because normal is normative.

From what I've read on the Wrong Planet boards, Aspies understand and relate to other Aspies so much quicker and easier. Apparently we experience very similar things and therefore relate to other's experience of same.

It makes sense.

Aspies have difficulty with to conversations with NT's. I would like to point out that if NT's said what they meant, we wouldn't have such difficulties. But that is where most of the problem lies; in the difference of speech.

Actually, I'm still a little lost as to what exactly Theory of Mind is. It's used as a broad club by many, but I think they don't understand what it is either.

ToM's usage is.....inconsistent at best. "Broad club" might be a fair description of how the concept is used here on WP.

I agree.
It works both ways.

Neurotypical parents have enough trouble understanding their neurotypical kids. It probably harder still to understand aspie kids.

Of course. I've been pointing out that for years. They can only empathise with what they can relate to, just like us, so they have no better theory of mind than we do. They are every bit as limited in that way, it's just not equally easy to see because you have to see them with someone who is really different. Most NTs are sufficiently alike that they appear as if they have great ToM.
If they had such great ToM they wouldn't misunderstand us and each other so much all the time. I've observed people talking to each other and seen them so obviously talk past each other and then the discussion gets heated as they keep talking past each other. I've seen a lot of it at home, in school, and it amazes me how they fail to see it.
Hey, I'm no master communicator in any way but at least I'm aware of my shortcomings. They are not.

I agree. People make an educated guess about why X just did or said something but the likelihood of this guess being correct is based on many factors, one of them being how roughly similar X's style of thought is to their own. (Another huge factor is knowing everything that preceded X's action, which is conveyed by saying "you don't have the full story".) When NTs interact with AS people, it is with the assumption that they are interacting with somebody wired similarly. For instance, NTs read and transmit body language easily and often subconsciously and will assume the person they are interacting with does too. Thus the NT>AS accusations of snubbing, being intentionally mean and so on.

NT parents of AS kids (and I am one) will eventually realize that this relating process just isn't working out and they have no clue why their kid just did something. Some parents won't be much bothered by this lack of Theory of Mind they have about their kid. Others will want to overcome their Theory of Mind deficit and turn to experts, message boards and (best case scenario) adult autistics (with good explanation abilities) to translate what they are observing in their kid. So some NTs are aware of their own Theory of MInd deficit regarding AS people (generally after some repeated massive fails on their part). But this sudden self awareness is not guaranteed nor is it going to be 24/7 once the NT is aware of it. I slip up too, through sheer force of habit, and sometimes expect my daughter to "get" something I conveyed with body language.

I think sociopaths exploit this fact about Theory of Mind (that people expect who they are interacting with to be neurologically similar unless there is an obvious reason not to like Down Syndrome features). They know that people will map the common rationales onto the things a sociopath does and therefore miss the signs they are being set up or exploited.

My experience is the opposite. I find it harder to communicate with Aspies. At least in a conversation with an NT, one of you knows what they are doing.

I think this thread demonstrates misunderstanding of what exactly "empathy" means in this context. I'll use an anecdote to demonstrate.

Some of you may remember that I have done voluntary work with disabled children and teenagers who attend special schools. One time I went on a week long residential trip with a large group of disabled teenagers aged from 13 to 16 (ranging from kids with Downs and severe autism to those with moderate ADHD and disruptive behaviour) plus a group of older NTs (aged 16 and 17).

Anyway, during some of the activities, a non-verbal, severely autistic boy (who I will call Nigel) would stick his fingers in his ears, screw up his eyes, and moan. I knew how he was feeling, and why, and that he'd probably want to be left alone, because I've been there and I could think back to how it felt for me. The NTs didn't need to have been there, because they could just tell. NTs don't have to "put themselves in another's shoes", because it is usually second nature to them.

On another occasion, Nigel was sat on his bed and had to be convinced to get dressed for the next day. I've never been a non-verbal severely autistic teenager being told to get dressed, so I couldn't remember how I'd felt in this alien situation, but the NTs could tell that Nigel wanted some privacy. They don't need to draw on their past knowledge, they can just tell.

Now obviously NT empathy isn't infallible, particularly when they are in groups, but there's something there beyond recalling from your own experiences.

In the example provided above, are you indicating that your non-Aspie co-workers were able to "just tell" what someone else was thinking without any additional information? Did they have training? Did they deal with this situation before?

I realize that you're providing an example, I just wanted to make sure I understood the example before I commented further.

Hmm. I guess it is quite hard to say. None of us had any training (though I should stress that there were trained adults there as well, but they weren't responsible for day-to-day care) and it was the first time we'd been in that situation. However, I guess they could have known due to having closer relationships with their siblings or some such- they'd encountered similar situations before that I hadn't. But I did find generally that they were better at ascribing motivations to the less verbal children there... but again, is that because they're naturally better, or because they're more sociable and have been in situations I haven't?

This quote confirms what I said at least. You knew what he was feeling because you're familiar with that feeling. I believe NT's do exactly the same with the memory of their own emotions, and viewing of those same emotions in others. It's a familiarity which allows empathy.

I don't believe it is second nature to them. What Nigel was doing would be obvious to anyone. He was bored and wanted out.

There are two components to what is commonly called 'theory of mind'.

True theory of mind refers to social cognition, the ability to conceive of other people's minds and infer what could be going on inside them. For example, concepts such as 'seeing leads to knowing' and 'just because I know something doesn't mean someone else will know it'. Evidence is pretty clear that autistics are poorer at this than NTs are. However, Deaf kids with hearing parents struggle with this too, while Deaf kids with Deaf parents don't. So it's possible that it's being autistic with NT parents that causes social cognitive issues, rather than autism per say.

Some people also use 'theory of mind' to refer to social perceptual skills. Basically the ability to pick up on subtle nonverbal cues that people use to communicate their thoughts and emotions. There's a lot of good evidence showing that autistics are poor at reading the nonverbal cues of NTs. The reverse (NT ability to read autistics) has not been directly studied, but it's pretty clear that NTs also have trouble reading autistics as well. Now, whether autistics are any better at reading other autistics than NTs are is another matter, and frankly we just don't know. Some autistics (myself included) anecdotally experience this, but it's never been formally studied.