How is AS mistaken for schizophrenia?

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This quote is from the humpty dumpty thread http://www.wrongplanet.net/modules.php? ... 055#430055 . I didn't want to derail that thread, so I thought i'd ask this in a new thread instead. How can AS be mistaken for schizophrenia?

Well, two of the "negative" symptoms of Schizophrenia are "flat affect" and looking dirty/disheveled. Those are two things that are seen in AS a lot too.

Other than that, I've heard that sometimes people get diagnosed with schizophrenia for a short period of time because when the doctor asks them if they "hear voices," they say Yes because they interpret it literally. Of course they hear voices, the doctor is speaking to them. The doctors don't usually specify and said "Do you hear voices that other people don't hear?"

to go along with what mne said...

i read often on here how AS ppl tend to have an ongoing dialogue running through their head. i kinda do this, it's like an audio recording that plays and is kinda muted unless i specifically wanna hear what it says... i've also read about how AS/autistic ppl tend to repeat things they hear... is that "echolia"? i likely could be wrong on the word...

but i would think that might constitute as "hearing voices"?

other than that... im not too sure. i don't have a psych textbook with me, but i tend to think of schizo as being delusional like from "beautiful mind" (pretty sure that's what he had). i've had some pretty surreal interpretations of events... but i'm also (pretty) sure they all happened,lol!

When I was 17 I was diagnosed with Schizophrenia and one thing the doctor did ask is if I "hear voices". I answered Yes and did not think much about it. I also discussed my friend I had (who was an invisible friend, and I mentioned that). She asked if I can see him, and I said I could in my mind. She misunderstood that for hallucinating. She asked if we talk and I said Yes again (we talked but not outloud). In my mind I can see "movie clips" and play each one on a whim. And there is a soundtrack there too. I'm not really explaining it well.

I am very glad I researched the pill prescribed before taking it and had my mom call the doctor to get an explanation for why she gave a pill for Schizophrenia when she said it was a sleeping pill. The doctor said nothing about Schizophrenia to me. If she did, I could have explained how I do not have Schizophrenia.

By the way I do not have invisible friend anymore. It's just that I had no friend and my mom preferred I stay in my room so I would not bother her. Things are different now. So I was very lonely and bored with a vivid imagination.

Okay... an autistic person can easily meet most or all of the diagnostic criteria besides "delusions" and "hallucinations". (Plus look at the actual criteria for catatonic schizophrenia in depth and you'll see even more.) And you can get diagnosed with schizophrenia without delusions or hallucinations.

I just recently read in a Tony Attwood book about how many autistic people (me included in this) go through a stage of in-depth immersion in a fantasy world, where there can be some question as to whether it's "psychotic" or not, as seen from the outside.

Then there's the taking the "Do you hear voices?" question literally, or talking to yourself, or echolalically repeating what you've heard people reply to questions such as "Do you hear voices?" etc.

And so on and so forth.

I was mistaken for sch when 16 yrs old and I carried that label until just recently when it was corrected to AS. The issue was the mentioned "flat effect", fantasy world, lack of social skills, unexplainable fear of certain objects and such.

I have thought people could read my mind and that thoughts were being implanted in my head, among other crazy stuff. I assumed I must be completely nuts, but I made a poll about delusional thinking here and apparently 50%+ of us have it.

I have a female friend who was diagnosed with AS primarily based on the fact that until she was an adolescent, she thought people could read her mind.

I also think paranoia and disturbed perception (visual/ audio/ skin) are not uncommon among people with AS.

And there's also the possibility of just being driven to the point of "looking and acting crazy" by various aspects of living in an NT world, i.e. bullying, etc.. It can MAKE you crazy, I think.

Ive a couple of 'paranoid schitzophrenic' friends who have strong PDD/ASD traits, however the most noticable symptom (from the POV of an NT) is the paranoid ideation.

<understand that in the UK psychiatrists are not specifically trained to recognise ASD/PDD - they tend to diagnose on based on what theyve been taught - bipolar/schitz/personality disorder etc - therefore misdiagnosis of PDDs is unsurprisingly rife>

I suspect that the paranoid ideation may be a side effect of ASD, because they are missing out on non-verbal cues (yet not conciously aware of this fact) + the eternal sense of not fitting in & the frequent interpersonal mishaps & conflicts this inevitably leads to - its easy to see how all this could encourage paranoia in some people.

I havent explained myself well -its late, im tired - maybe try again tomorrow if necessary...

I have thought myself schizophrenic. Several of the "symptoms" overlap, and much in the tectbooks is vague. I have a dialog or monolog in my head all the time unless i force it out with music. I tend to paranoia, but then I am an Aspie: A permanent outlander - and I will guess that many of them do talk behind my back - and if they all get communication in emotion while I do not, then it seems like a conspiracy.
I hallucinate (see things that aren't there) all the time: and I get paid for it too. I can visulize design of things: like buildings. I do architecture and related engineering to the point that local building authorities will allow (a lot since I have not but a business license - I do know my stuff).

A lot of this "mentally ill" stuff can be aimed at anyone out of the norm: like creative people.

I can understand how someone might mix a few symptoms up, but I fail to see how it'd be so damaging.

Hopefully most AS people don't look dirty/disheveled. My worst vices there are that I don't shave that often(blades dull too quick), and I might not tuck my shirt in(Can't ANYONE make a decent shirt?). So I guess I look a bit disheveled sometimes, but NOT dirty.

The "flat effect" is not meaningful. HECK, the dirty/disheveled isn't EITHER! As for the voices bit, it seems that maybe they should observe, etc... I mean if someone is REALLY schizophrenic, shouldn't they have some idea themselves if they are willing to tell you?

Steve

I think the misdiagnosis may stem from social phobic aspects.

In the case of AS; we may obssess for days about a trivial situation.
eg. We walk past a group of unknown people, they laugh as we walk past. (There are many other examples). We think 'was the laughter directed at me?'. This is a 'normal' thought ( it is useful & logical to be paranoid in certain situations.)
A 'normal' person would dismiss these thoughts quickly. However, if you have symptoms of 'social phobia' and 'compulsive' tendencies, then these thoughts may spiral (and be more frequent) and can be misinterpreted as symptoms of paranoid delusions.
The difference between the schizophrenic is that there be no logical basis behind their delusion.

edit: i think this is key what psych said: "because they are missing out on non-verbal cues (yet not conciously aware of this fact) + the eternal sense of not fitting in & the frequent interpersonal mishaps & conflicts this inevitably leads to..."

Also, it is a good story and there is a song called 'bananafishbones' by The Cure, inspired by it... i digress.

the word autism has been taken from schizophrenia research. it can be a symptom of schizophrenia. sensory perception without a sensory stimulus as consequence of a real external source, like images, voices an so on. i think the paranoid form of schizophrenia is similar to autism.

I'm guessing you haven't run into too many people on the "severe" end of the Asperger's spectrum. One of my psychologists is an Asperger's specialist, and he has to "air out" his office in between appointments. Literally, open all the windows and the door to the outside and turn on fans. Lots of his male clients/patients that I see coming and going are quite disheveled and frankly, smelly, which he admits. When I go in, he tells me which chair/sofa I should sit in to avoid sitting in a spot where one of his smellier clients was just sitting.

No, simple schizophrenia (only negative symptoms) is most similar to autism and Asperger's syndrome. The negative symptoms include what amounts to an extremely high degree of introversion: flat affect (no display of visible emotion), anhedonia (lack of feelings of pleasure or happiness), avolition (inactivity and lack of discernible external-oriented goals like a career), and alogia (lack of speech or terse speech that directly answers questions with a yes or no).

The disorganized symptoms of schizophrenia (which are closely related to the negative symptoms) may also resemble autism. Schizophrenics with disorganized symptoms act in a way that strikes others as incoherent or bizarre. Their speech can be vague and hard to follow. They may make a lot of logical fallacies in their thought process. Their emotions may be bizarre and not match the situation. (For a person with autism or Asperger's syndrome who may not understand social contexts very well, their behavior, speech/thought, and emotion may well seem disorganized.)

The paranoid/psychotic/positive symptoms include hallucinations, delusions, and an overall attitude of suspiciousness/hostility. Usually their hallucinations and delusions are quite bizarre and grossly in contrast with reality; much of the time they are not aware that their perceptions of the world around them are off the mark and that the conclusions they form about it are so deluded. Mental boundaries (between subjective imagination and the external reality, proprioception (placement of the body, blended into the surroundings)) are blurred. A so-called psychotic level of personality functioning is present (psychoanalytically, high use of psychotic projection (placing one's own thoughts and attributions onto the external world and processing one's thoughts through external symbolism), denial (which allows a delusional system to form), splitting (a simplification of ideas into polar opposites like all good or all evil), grandiosity, compartmentalization (thoughts and memories become distorted and disconnected from each other), etc.). I think these positive (paranoid) symptoms of schizophrenia would show the highest contrast with autistic spectrum disorders.

two things you never want to tell a doctor is you hear voices or you think someones after you. you'll get diagnosed with schizophrenia everytime. i'm fairly certain mild paranoia is common in AS