Anyone else freaked out about the Kelly Thomas murder?

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SpaceMaster9000
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18 Jan 2014, 9:52 pm

I've been reading about Kelly Thomas and I'm kinda freaked out. The police in my area (Ojai, California) aren't very violent and most of them know how to act around schizophrenics and neural atypicals, but it seems to be getting out of control in other places.
Are the police forces slipping?
Are there just more mentally unstable people living without support?
Is there an actual rise in mentally unstable people?
Does this kind of thing happen often where you live and have you ever been a victim of police brutality?

I know that this is more about mental disorders and not aspies and autistics, but it's still very concerning for all of us.



TheGoggles
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18 Jan 2014, 10:23 pm

I'd say it's pretty disturbing that you can be caught on tape saying "You see these fists? They're about to **** you up." before beating a suspect to death and getting away with it.

There was also a school resource officer near me that shot an autistic student to death when he had an outburst. The family received a lot of money from the state to settle the case.



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18 Jan 2014, 11:12 pm

AS/ASD people are a high risk of this because they likely display physical and/or verbal behavior that is contrary to what a NT person expects. :!:



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18 Jan 2014, 11:47 pm

Its a very real risk. Police forces will always have some with these tendencies. These guys did not know there actions were being recorded. It's typical school yard bulling made legal with a badge and deadly weapons.

http://www.alternet.org/cops-who-beat-h ... -walk-free



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18 Jan 2014, 11:51 pm

I read yesterday about a deaf guy who was arrested. The cop was giving him orders, but the guy couldn't hear and was giving the "I can't hear you" sign-language sign, which is two fingers pointing up behind your ear. The cop thought the deaf guy was gesturing sarcastically. Fortunately, in court, all the charges were dropped. And, there was another story recently I saw about another deaf man who was beaten by the police for not responding to orders to show his hands. His car had a placard on the back saying that the driver was deaf. Another case was an native guy in Canada who would walk around town carving wood sculptures. A new cop saw him with the knife and shot and killed him in 7 seconds. Fortunately, there was audio and the cop was fired (though not charged with anything). All that in about 2 weeks?

I think the police have gotten more aggressive and thin-skinned. I'm not sure if it's due to the War on Drugs, 9/11, or the recruiting of combat veterans into police forces or what. Probably some of all three and more. Maybe hiring standards have been changed. From the news, there seem to be a lot of George Zimmerman types who 'know' that someone is guilty enough to be killed by looking at them for 3 minutes.

I read somewhere that police are no longer trained to try to deescalate situations, but rather to dominate them quickly and meet any sign of resistance with overwhelming force/violence. I don't know why that changed, but that seems like a big problem to me. Add officers with PTSD from Iraq or Afghanistan and you've got a recipe for disaster.



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19 Jan 2014, 2:53 am

The US is becoming a police state.
http://www.policestateusa.com/



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19 Jan 2014, 5:16 am

This is not surprising. The job of a police officer *is* to use violence against anyone who the state does not like. Even if the police attract the same distribution of personalities as are found in the populace at large (though that wouldn't be saying much - see Stanford Prison Experiment, Milgrams Obedience Experiments), they're going to be desensitised by enforcing laws against victimless activities. That's compounded by the human ingroup/outgroup tendencies, and the dehumanisation of people outside the norm.

In other words, if you build a system based on violence (i.e. the state), do not be surprised when stuff like this happens, because you're relying on fallible humans to wield the violence.



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19 Jan 2014, 9:08 am

SpaceMaster9000 wrote:
Anyone else freaked out about the Kelly Thomas murder?

Dismayed, yes; freaked-out, no. The acquittal came after a due-process jury trial, and a civil suit is pending; but I have to wonder ...

If Kelly Thomas' parents loved him so much, then why did they let him become a homeless vagrant? Now he's dead.

[opinion=mine]

Seems to me that they could have had him declared "Non Compos Mentis", institutionalized him, kept him off the streets, and thereby kept him alive; but they didn't, so now they're as culpable as any of the police, and don't deserve to win any civil suit against anyone for their son's death.

[/opinion]



TheGoggles
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19 Jan 2014, 1:11 pm

Quote:
I'm not sure if it's due to the War on Drugs, 9/11, or the recruiting of combat veterans into police forces or what. Probably some of all three and more. Maybe hiring standards have been changed.


Nope, a lot of police are people who were dismissed or fired from other departments. A lot of PTSD, ties to organized crime, and massive amounts of corruption (LAPD, NYPD, Maricopa County Sheriff's Department).

There are also a handful of PD's that won't accept applicants if their IQ is "too high" for their standards: http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barr ... y?id=95836



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19 Jan 2014, 1:22 pm

Fnord wrote:
If Kelly Thomas' parents loved him so much, then why did they let him become a homeless vagrant? Now he's dead.

Seems to me that they could have had him declared "Non Compos Mentis", institutionalized him, kept him off the streets, and thereby kept him alive; but they didn't, so now they're as culpable as any of the police, and don't deserve to win any civil suit against anyone for their son's death.


So, in your mind, not only is having your (unarmed) adult son beaten to death by the police for essentially no reason a foreseeable consequence of not having him institutionalized, it is morally equivalent to delivering the beating yourself?

Seriously Fnord, I've found your uncritical worship of authority over the years off putting and ill considered before, but this is a new low for you.


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Last edited by Dox47 on 19 Jan 2014, 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Solitudinarian
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19 Jan 2014, 1:43 pm

I think that the rampant police brutality, which we don't see in other Western nations on this scale, is an indirect result of the American gun culture. In a country where the ratio of guns to people is about 1:1, it is easy to see why the consequently extremely dangerous police work attracts many high-thrill seeking individuals with low impulse control and violent tendencies, aka sociopaths.

Every time I read about American police forces kicking down the door of an elderly woman and shooting her dog after pinning the poor old lady to the ground, I can't help but think "so that's how safe you really are for having the freedom to keep a gun in the nightstand". I'd rather defend myself with a baseball bat against a hypothetical burglar, because all the guns in the world don't help you against the heavily armed thugs in police uniforms that are the price of living in a gun-crazed and highly paranoid country.



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19 Jan 2014, 2:07 pm

Solitudinarian wrote:
I think that the rampant police brutality, which we don't see in other Western nations on this scale, is an indirect result of the American gun culture. In a country where the ratio of guns to people is about 1:1, it is easy to see why the consequently extremely dangerous police work attracts many high-thrill seeking individuals with low impulse control and violent tendencies, aka sociopaths.


Do some research before opening your mouth; violence against the police is at historic lows both with and without guns, and by far the most common cause of death for on duty police is traffic accidents. Delivering pizza, among other things, is more statistically dangerous than police work.

Solitudinarian wrote:
Every time I read about American police forces kicking down the door of an elderly woman and shooting her dog after pinning the poor old lady to the ground, I can't help but think "so that's how safe you really are for having the freedom to keep a gun in the nightstand".


And every time I read a statement like this, I'm reminded of why people talking out of their ass annoys me so much. What could shooting the dog possibly have to do with the availability of firearms? If you'd bothered to actually, god forbid, read about the subject and do a little critical thinking, you'd know that we've had guns since the beginning, but the militarized police are a more recent phenomenon, a side effect of the war on drugs and the transfer of military equipment to local police under the guise of fighting terrorism.

Solitudinarian wrote:
I'd rather defend myself with a baseball bat against a hypothetical burglar, because all the guns in the world don't help you against the heavily armed thugs in police uniforms that are the price of living in a gun-crazed and highly paranoid country.


Again, we've always had the guns, we haven't always had the thuggish police. Stay in your lane if you don't know what you're talking about.


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19 Jan 2014, 2:23 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Add officers with PTSD from Iraq or Afghanistan and you've got a recipe for disaster.


Quote:
A lot of PTSD, ties to organized crime, and massive amounts of corruption (LAPD, NYPD, Maricopa County Sheriff's Department).


:roll: Bring on the vilification of mental illness! I love when people avoid diagnosis to avoid the unintelligent negative stigma that accompanies treatment. If you've met ONE person with PTSD, then...you've met one person with PTSD. I mean, if we're going to declare people with mental illnesses and syndromes as dangerous, let's be fair.

Someone with Asperger's is to Adam Lanza as someone with PTSD is to [insert cop with PTSD who snaps and kills innocent people].



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19 Jan 2014, 3:10 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
I read yesterday about a deaf guy who was arrested. The cop was giving him orders, but the guy couldn't hear and was giving the "I can't hear you" sign-language sign, which is two fingers pointing up behind your ear. The cop thought the deaf guy was gesturing sarcastically. Fortunately, in court, all the charges were dropped. And, there was another story recently I saw about another deaf man who was beaten by the police for not responding to orders to show his hands. His car had a placard on the back saying that the driver was deaf. Another case was an native guy in Canada who would walk around town carving wood sculptures. A new cop saw him with the knife and shot and killed him in 7 seconds. Fortunately, there was audio and the cop was fired (though not charged with anything). All that in about 2 weeks?

I think the police have gotten more aggressive and thin-skinned. I'm not sure if it's due to the War on Drugs, 9/11, or the recruiting of combat veterans into police forces or what. Probably some of all three and more. Maybe hiring standards have been changed. From the news, there seem to be a lot of George Zimmerman types who 'know' that someone is guilty enough to be killed by looking at them for 3 minutes.

I read somewhere that police are no longer trained to try to deescalate situations, but rather to dominate them quickly and meet any sign of resistance with overwhelming force/violence. I don't know why that changed, but that seems like a big problem to me. Add officers with PTSD from Iraq or Afghanistan and you've got a recipe for disaster.


Someone who was half-deaf in Seattle who was carving a piece of wood with a knife as he was walking down the street (he was a wood carver) had a cop sneak up behind him, bark a couple of orders, and the gunned him down within seconds. It was such that even the police ruled it was unjustified. They never charged him because in Washington State, police can only be convicted of causing a death in the line of duty when malice is proven... a ridiculous policy.



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19 Jan 2014, 3:19 pm

The defence strategy in this Kelly Thomas affair was to suggest to the jury that this was a person who deserved it and that the police were doing a service. The judge aided in this by admitting completely irrelevant evidence. Also, the defence harped on the exact cause of death which should also be irrelevant under the prevailing eggshell skull rule. My guess it that eggshell skull never figured in the jury instructions. The judge tipped his hand decisively at the end when he stated that the trial proved that violence begets violence. No one can say that Kelly Thomas was violent in the video, but the defence was allowed to admit irrelevant evidence of Thomas violent outbursts in the past to insinuate that he deserved to die. The judge in this way suggested that Thomas' past violent outbursts were subject to divine punishment through these cops, who are cast as righteous avengers. The judge is scum and should be removed from the bench in any civilised jurisdiction.



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19 Jan 2014, 4:21 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
If Kelly Thomas' parents loved him so much, then why did they let him become a homeless vagrant? Now he's dead. Seems to me that they could have had him declared "Non Compos Mentis", institutionalized him, kept him off the streets, and thereby kept him alive; but they didn't, so now they're as culpable as any of the police, and don't deserve to win any civil suit against anyone for their son's death.
So, in your mind, not only is having your (unarmed) adult son beaten to death by the police for essentially no reason a foreseeable consetquence of not having him institutionalized, it is morally equivalent to delivering the beating yourself?

Yes. It's the same general concept as when "loving" parents refuse to have their child immunized, and then they blame everyone but themselves for the death of their child from a preventable disease. Again, if the Thomases loved Kelly so much, then should have taken better care of him, and prevented him from putting himself in trouble.

Dox47 wrote:
Seriously Fnord, I've found your uncritical worship of authority over the years off putting and ill considered before, but this is a new low for you.

So? Would you rather that I pretend to be a legal expert and expound on the events of a foreign trial that I did not participate in or personally witness?

I'll tell you what: If I'm selected to serve on the jury that tries the Tomases' civil suit (I live near Fullerton), I promise to push for reimbursement of their funeral costs.

@xenon13: BTW ... How is that Dorner statue coming along?