Why justice is bad.

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I think the concept of justice is only used because our society doesn't want to use kinder methods to get people to stop acting badly. I've always thought that justice was synonymous with revenge, not actually doing bad things is the important thing, and solving problems with kindness is better than solving them with hatred.

If criminality is something that comes from poverty, negative upbringing, warped social norms, and unjust laws, then a person isn't as responsible for his crimes as his environment. It seems to me, this makes the idea of revenge against the criminal a flawed concept.

I think a more enlightened society would replace its thirst for Justice against the individual, with prevention, and mitigation of the criminals bad deeds. Unfortunately this would require that the public be indoctrinated toward kindness and forgiveness, Instead of revenge and social darwinism, and this seems to beyond the capacity of most NT's

The justice/ revenge hang-ups that do so much damage in our society, by preventing rehabilitation, harm minimisation and jailing people for victimless crimes, are the same instincts that lead to bullying and social ostracism based on aspie differences in personality.

NT stupidity and arrogance forces the "evildoer," whether aspie or "criminal," to make amends for the sins which are often victimless, and really not their fault to begin with.

I personally don't see it that way. Justice is a deterrent to others to protect the majority that they try to manipulate and con.
Look at the recent news; someone hacked millions of debit and credit card numbers from Target. One can only guess at someone's motivation why they would want to do something like that. Maybe they had an unhappy childhood, maybe they were not loved enough as children. I honestly feel that the majority of people practice the Golden Rule and have a "live and let
live" philosophy on life. Unfortunately some do not.

Such methods would only make crime easier to commit, and further damage society.

Justice is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. It is how it is applied and what is defined as justice.

For me, justice is about a lot more than what happens in the courtrooms...and what often happens in courtrooms is injustice, despite having the societal seal of approval claiming it is justice. I think that prisons are by definition unjust - especially in the US, where prisoners are skewed heavily toward people of color and most heavily toward black people. And where we have 5% of the world population but 25% of the prisoners. The prison industrial complex is not about justice or rehabilitation. It's about exploiting people, using them for cheap or free labor. Using them to get money from the state.

I think I agree with that. First and foremost such people need to be stopped. I'm not suggesting such people should be set free, unless they weren't responsible (brain tumour, self defence, crazy) and are no longer a threat. But society applies this term "justice" to criminals where society is more to blame than the perpetrator, or the crime is victimless (such as weed pos). So we are applying guilt/ sanction to people who did not carry out a moral trespass, and do not deserve guilt/ sanction.. I suggest that if we change our perception of justice, and the legal edifice. then these kinds of immoral outcomes wouldn't result.

It is like we are sacrificing victims to this concept of justice, instead of reasonably acting in a way where bad things are mitigated. Maybe we'll find that sometimes we need to jail people when they do bad things. But if we lost this concept of justice then we might let some of the blameless people go free, and we might do something about the underlying social causes of bad behaviour.

Last edited by Stannis on 21 Jan 2014, 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stannis: Here's the problem I have with this...

Take the example of a parent who sexually abuses their child. Pretty sure you'd agree with me that the parent needs to be arrested, charged and jailed.

OK, but what happens if it turns out that the parent was sexually abused by one of their parents? Statistically, those who are sexually abused are more likely to sexually abuse someone else.

Do we say "OK, well, there are mitigating circumstances, don't do it again."?

No. A crime has been committed against someone else, and in spite of the "mitigating circumstances", the perpetrator chose to commit the crime.

There's a difference between someone stealing a loaf of bread to feed their family, and someone stealing a 55" flat screen TV to feed their drug habit (or stealing my iPod out of my car).

Even if someone else/society is to "blame", most individuals have the sense of whether something is right or wrong. Although, with that said, I sat and spoke with a kid vandalising the back seat of a bus. We talked about crime, and he had no sense that what he was doing was wrong, nor the effect it might have on other people. We talked about my stolen iPod. He didn't steal it, but he had done similar stuff, going through unlocked cars and taking what he wanted.

And it had apparently never occurred to him that it might have an effect on the person he'd stolen from. "Their insurance will cover it!"

So I explained the concept of insurance excess (deductibles in the US?), or lack of insurance.

Are there things wrong with the justice system? Yes. Some laws are ridiculous. Some groups are unjustly targeted and arrested. Some times criminals walk on technicalities, innocent people go to jail, and some people are punished ridiculously so that politicians can be seen to be "tough on crime".

But if you're the victim of a crime, would you rather see the perpetrator be held responsible for their decisions, or would you just say "well, he had a violent father, and his mom abandoned him, so I guess it's OK..."?

I see justice more as punishment for committing the crime and an effort to deter you and others from committing the crime in the future.

A major problem with it, though, is the great number of people who wish revenge against criminals and others. It always bothers me when people express great pleasure at the pain and degradations that someone might suffer in prison.

We send people to prison as punishment, not for punishment. That is, the punishment is being in prison. Whatever happens to people in prison has nothing to do with justice.

From my point of view, no matter what someone has done -- there is no need to keep them in prison one day longer than what it takes to make sure that they never repeat the activity that got them sent to prison. The problem is that we really don't know who will not reoffend.

The goal of our prison system needs to be to rehabilitate those who can be rehabilitated and to warehouse those who cannot be rehabilitated. In either case, they need to be treated in a humane manner and kept safe.

The thing to remember is that most people in prison will be released at some point in the future. We need to enable them to become responsible citizens who will be functioning members of society instead of coming out of prison worse than when they entered prison.

The trouble is that those "kinder methods" aren't implemented because "kinder methods" don't work the same way and to the same degree with each individual -- what works for one person may have only a limited or temporary effect on others (or no effect at all). This is because criminals are individuals, not assembly-line robots that can be simply mind-wiped and re-programmed to be good citizens.

Recidivism is also an issue. People may be "rehabilitated", and act that way as long as everything goes well; but let their live become stress-filled and watch them revert to criminal behavior as a solution to their problems.

It's easier and cheaper to simply lock those bad people away from good people for as long as possible, and hope that the experience of incarceration inspires the bad people to rehabilitate themselves.

justice is a tool to keep public order and equilibrium and it is very effective.
to have to watch your behaviour constantly so as to not create an opportunity for others who may take advantage of your relaxed attitude is too large a price to pay to keep the scum mentalities at liberty.

one may say that if every woman was dressed from head to toe in clothes that reveal nothing about their figures, then the incidence of rape would be reduced. but for those women to make such an egregious decision as to sacrifice their liberties in the clothing dimension so as potential rapists may not be tempted and therefore avoid jail time is too much of a price to pay.

people should do what they desire to do without fear of criminal hijacks on their simple pleasures by socially rabid hyena's who are ethically aberrant and need to be caught and locked away

I almost agree with Stannis. Except that rehabilitation could be construed as brainwashing.

If I had killed someone who I felt deserved to die, I would probably rather rot my life away in a jail cell rather than be 'rehabilitated' to not do it again. I would not want to lose my identity if I liked my criminal identity.

The reason our justice system is the way it is though, is because jail is easy. Rehabilitation is hard, possibly impossible. Also, if jail = free labor, even better.

Prevention is the best cure though, deal with social issues instead of letting the marginalized sort themselves out. And this includes follow-up on people who are likely to commit or who have already committed crimes. But it's not just the marginalized who commit crimes, just as often it's people who want to get ahead in life, who want a bit more money, and who feel justified in their actions because they aren't victim specific (eg: insurance fraud that still has victims but not A victim) and because we're trained that being greedy is OK.

Stannis isn't suggesting that we all 'look after ourselves' to prevent crimes. Not punishing someone doesn't mean that suddenly those people will bother committing crimes. He's suggesting that we use different methods to prevent crimes from happening because we potentially have far more humane ways of preventing crime.
I personally think that strong, social ethics go a long way, much farther than most people appreciate, as deterrents for most people. But maybe I'm just thinking about myself. Why do YOU (anyone who cares to answer) not commit crimes?

Wonderful message. This is the problem we all have---there is this discrepancy factor, meaning there is no way to make everything always right from every single angle in terms of action. Someone will generally disagree with whatever action is being done because their thinking is not in line with someone elses thinking; a person's thinking may seems very right to himself, but to someone else it is obviously flawed. To change things and make a general tendency in society for people's thinking to be more enlightened is very slow. There is a general tendency for things to get better over the years, but it is actually not as good as it superficially appears to be, and things can revert at any time.I think there is an illusion that conditions are better than they actually are.

I am not really a fan of Karl Jung, but he a kind of interesting theory which I will call the Wotan theory which I am not sure I even agree with, but there may be something to it, that the holocaust happened because Christianity was imposed upon the German people and they reverted back to primitive condition because of this.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showpos ... ostcount=1



This is to say that when you impose various conditions upon people which do not make organic sense to them and which are not equalized with their own inner conditioning, that ultimately there might be a rebellion. Now some people knew it was wrong and went with their conscience and protected their Jewish neighbors, but others could not do that....they went with the group. This means their potentially for individuality was devoured by the principle of equalizing themselves with the group mentality. To be an individual is the crowing glory of a human being, but there is always the discrepancy factor to deal with, and how to deal with it? to be an individual it is necessary to know how to think, but if you hid your neighbor in your house you could be killed--your whole family could be killed..

However, with a crack dealer in the hood it is not so cut and dried, nor is it with a member of a jury in a court, say at the Trevon Martin trial.He feels what he is doing is right, and it really does seem to be right, and so did these jurors, and certain evidence was withheld. The main point is that just because these people cannot sort it out does not mean that one cannot sort it out for himself, but it is very difficult to do, or else everything would already be sorted out, as the world would obviously be a much better place if it were.

The main reason why people think that justice is bad seems to be that jury decisions don't go the way that they want them to.

Justice works when the jury's decision matches your opinion.

Justice fails when the jury's decision opposes your opinion.

Why not revert to Mob Rule, where every lynching is the result of a community decision, and there is no wasteful trial at all?

... and no appeal when new evidence is discovered ...

The justice system shows little/no compassion, that is why it could be better. Criminals are people too. The OP at least had nothing to do with perceptions of wrong verdicts of guilt and innocence.

Do any of the people who are talking about giving criminals a kinder and gentler sentence or whatever actually know any criminals? By this, I don't mean maybe you went to school with somebody who ended up in prison, I mean actually know them and counted them as friends? Have any of the ones calling for that ever engaged in any for real crime? I'm asking this because thinking that being nice to them and teaching them better won't work. I know criminals. Most don't get caught. Honestly, most crime is not solved and people get away with stuff all the time. I know people who have done things that they should receive serious jail time for. Hell, I've done things I should receive serious jail time for. Know why they did it and I did it? Cause we could. We knew we could probably get away with it.

Everybody in prison and in jail is innocent. Ask them, they will tell you. They don't see what they did as a crime. Thats why when somebody tells you they have been in prison you never ask "What did you do?" you ask "What did they say you did?" It's a very important difference.

OK, I have this one friend. Nice guy. He really is. He's a great guy. But he was all ganged up in Birmingham back in the day and robbed this store. It went seventeen kinds of wrong. His partner didn't meet him, the guy who worked there and was going to make it a set up robbery so this old man that owned it was there. Now, this wasn't some sweet ole man. Old man used to loan money and charge interest out the ass and if he didn't get paid, he would have people come get your s**t or if you didn't have any s**t you would get hurt. So this friends partner doesn't call him and he comes in the store all "Put your motherfucking hands up!" and then, because the idiot (he's a nice guy but not the smartest guy out there so he didn't even bother to check who was in there first) didn't know it wasn't his friend, he was stuck with it and had to carry out the robbery. Now he's robbed people before, but that old man was mean. He knew something would happen and he couldn't just walk out. So the old man reaches under the counter for his sawed off and my friend shot him. Killed him. He got 14 years straight time and is out now. He does not rob stores anymore. Know what he does for a living in Bham? He makes crack. He got caught for that ONE robbery and that ONE killing. Thats all I'm saying about that, but he did a lot more he didn't get caught for.

I've done some things that would put me away for a long time, but wasn't caught. Not going into it either. But I didn't get caught. Would being nice to me have helped? No.

You have to understand the mindset of the criminal element and who you are dealing with. It's a way of thinking which you cannot change. Do I think that way? Yep. Do I act that way? Nope, cause I don't want to go to prison. If you were to get a random group of for real criminals and sit them down together, without some counselor or anything and have them talk about therapy or being taught better as a way to stop the crimes, they would laugh their asses off. They would definately want that to happen, cause they can play that s**t off great. It's like the old joke "What does a dope cook who founds Jesus in prison do when he gets out of prison? He cooks dope then goes to church.". Cause they all find Jesus in there, they all learn the lingo from therapists about coping techniques and how to redirect your anger, etc. It's BS is what it is. (I'm not saying Jesus is BS, so Christians please don't think that, I mean them finding Him is)

You aren't going to change how they think. You can change how they act if they are afraid enough of prison. Some things happened yesterday where I ended up sitting in this car with a guy I had just met, for 30 minutes, waiting, and he was telling me how he just got out from robbery and attempted murder. Yet he was committing another crime at the time (see my post in Members forum, I handled the played crap). We talked about the cops in town for a few, one of them is his cousin, we talked about drugs, we talked about where he did his time, we did the "do you know so and so" business, etc. We put each other's phone numbers in our phones. He had literally just got out about a week before and was standing out there trapping. What did prison teach him? Don't rob people and try to kill them. It did not teach him to not commit other crimes. Know what I learned from my very first time being arrested? Don't believe people when they tell you where the gun actually came from, even if you are buying it as a Christmas gift for somebody. So, I don't buy guns from people I don't know well anymore. I learned from the other times that my mother is a goddamned liar and when she's mad and wanting attention, don't get near her and if she hurts you, just let her because it doesn't hurt that bad. She plays it into somebody else's fault. Another time I learned that if you don't mark up easy, you don't ever get in a fight with a guy who does because it'll all be put on you. My best friend learned don't carry points in the car with you. Ever.

Do you see at all what I'm saying here? Therapy isn't going to change how people think. I've been in therapy for depression and panic disorder and agoraphobia. I've told everything to my therapist, and I've told everything to my priest back when I was Christian. How you think isn't going to change. You either don't do things because you don't want to go to prison (because I know of MANY a crime that wasn't committed because the chances of getting caught were high) or you do them knowing (or thinking) you won't get caught, or you just don't give a s**t and do them anyway cause what have you got to lose?

I'm telling you the home truth on this matter, and you can ask anybody whose been in the life about it, and if they know you and are being honest with you, they will tell you the same thing.

Prison works. Keep it. If you are going to commit a crime, watch your back and cover your bases. Or better yet, just don't do it.

Hi. Yes I have. I smoked a joint once. I am therefore a criminal.



"Criminals" are individuals who commit crimes. To assume that they all fit a certain mould is fallacious.



The PR industry does a pretty good job of changing how people think. To people who are locked into media, I would say marketing greatly influences their aspirations, values, and fears. Another thing which shapes the psyche is peer pressure. Like the kind of peer pressure that comes about when you put a bunch of criminals in a prison together with nothing to think about but which crimes they're going to commit when they get out.


Prison works to increase the profits of private prison contractors. An industry which motivates law makers to increase the number of prisoners, in order to increase posits. It works to make criminals more hardened than they were when they went in. It works to jail people for victimless, or stupid crimes. In short, Prison makes society worse, and is the cause of many things which are negative and unfair.

I think that much of the public has come to anthropomorphise "justice" into a kind of goddess to which we sacrifice our fellow citizens to the detriment of a decent, good, and fair society. They might not realise this is what they do, but I think the thought processes are not much different to people who thought it was reasonable to sacrifice humans to the sun god. The criminal justice system is not something we should have faith in. It is something that we should be skeptical of, as we should be skeptical of all systems of power and coercion.

Last edited by Stannis on 21 Jan 2014, 9:14 pm, edited 8 times in total.

Frances,

My brothers have criminal records, and I was often rounded up with them for questioning just because we happened to be related.

I was also tasked in the Navy with transporting criminal offenders from the municipal jails to the brig on base, and NONE of those pigs deserved any "kinder and gentler" treatment; not only did they disgrace the uniforms they were wearing, but they never seem to grasp the concept that (1) they had just broken the law, and (2) they had just ruined any chances for a promotion or an Honorable Discharge until I had signed them over to the MAAs. Not to mention the verbal abuse they heaped upon me for being a "Goody-goody suck-up sailor", simply because I stayed out of trouble and followed orders.

You should have seen them turn into whimpering cowards once the Chief Master-At-Arms got a-hold of them. Some even wet and/or soiled themselves the moment that they realized that this was Serious Business and that they were about to go through a regimen that makes boot camp look like a four-year-old's birthday party.

Crime is serious business, and criminals should not be coddled.