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MR20
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27 May 2014, 9:54 am

I don't really mind stricter modding, but I really hope we don't get overly sensitive and start banning for every preconceived thing a person might find offensive.

This is supposed to a social helping forum for a lot of people that have been lacking in the social department all their lives. What people may perceive as "sexist" and "meanspirited" is probably just innocent cluelessness and ignorance. (to a lot of people that doesn't excuse it, but still)

A lot of these people have these warped views due to excessive bullying, extreme social isolation due to being cast out or not even allowed in most social circles, or just plain disadvantages due aspergers/austism growing up.

I just hope we remain cognizant and empathetic to a lot of these people, and don't react with vengeance/emotion whenever someone says something you may disagree with.

A lot of us need help, and this is one of the very few places on the web where there are people like us in abundance.



kraftiekortie
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27 May 2014, 10:09 am

We should employ education, rather than vengeance. Absolutely.



tarantella64
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27 May 2014, 10:14 am

MR20 wrote:
I don't really mind stricter modding, but I really hope we don't get overly sensitive and start banning for every preconceived thing a person might find offensive.

This is supposed to a social helping forum for a lot of people that have been lacking in the social department all their lives. What people may perceive as "sexist" and "meanspirited" is probably just innocent cluelessness and ignorance. (to a lot of people that doesn't excuse it, but still)

A lot of these people have these warped views due to excessive bullying, extreme social isolation due to being cast out or not even allowed in most social circles, or just plain disadvantages due aspergers/austism growing up.

I just hope we remain cognizant and empathetic to a lot of these people, and don't react with vengeance/emotion whenever someone says something you may disagree with.

A lot of us need help, and this is one of the very few places on the web where there are people like us in abundance.


So it sounds like a written policy to guide moderation would be helpful, no? And a set of warnings: read the policy re misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc., you have X strikes and then you're out, sorry.

A sticky to do with the various -isms would be a good thing, too, with links to further reading.

I do think it's useful to keep in mind that some of the forum members are *autistic women*, and that it's a bit rich to expect them to come put up with ill treatment because a guy's autistic.



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27 May 2014, 10:54 am

tarantella64 wrote:
I do think it's useful to keep in mind that some of the forum members are *autistic women*, and that it's a bit rich to expect them to come put up with ill treatment because a guy's autistic.


This.



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27 May 2014, 1:49 pm

It's the internet, I find that if you ignore the trolls they'll eventually move on for food or die of starvation.
That's half of moderation right there is community moderation-- if a troll creates a troll thread to bait you, just ignore it and it'll die from lack of bumps.



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27 May 2014, 1:52 pm

I would like to see concrete examples of the kind of posts - actual, or imagined for sake of illustration - which contain something that those who are worried about moderation against sexism (let's face it: misogyny) think will be wrongly removed, perhaps even getting the poster into trouble.

Otherwise this all gets a bit vague.


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MR20
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27 May 2014, 2:32 pm

Hopper wrote:
I would like to see concrete examples of the kind of posts - actual, or imagined for sake of illustration - which contain something that those who are worried about moderation against sexism (let's face it: misogyny) think will be wrongly removed, perhaps even getting the poster into trouble.

Otherwise this all gets a bit vague.


Can you give me some examples of misogynistic posts that should be moderated? I mean other than "all women are sluts" "stay in the kitchen" "They're inferior and should be only allowed to give birth" "all women are evil" "you're to blame for your own rape/sexual abuse" etc posts.

I mean those ones are pretty easy to spot. Other times people are trying to a grasp on how the opposite sex acts and behave. Since a lot of the men that come here for advice are very socially stunted due to a lot of circumstances, what may come off as misogynistic and sexist thoughts are basically clueless and social awkwardness misinterpreted.

As someone said earlier, education is key. Banning and vengeance is not going to help people.



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27 May 2014, 2:39 pm

MR20 wrote:
Hopper wrote:
I would like to see concrete examples of the kind of posts - actual, or imagined for sake of illustration - which contain something that those who are worried about moderation against sexism (let's face it: misogyny) think will be wrongly removed, perhaps even getting the poster into trouble.

Otherwise this all gets a bit vague.


Can you give me some examples of misogynistic posts that should be moderated? I mean other than "all women are sluts" "stay in the kitchen" "They're inferior and should be only allowed to give birth" "all women are evil" "you're to blame for your own rape/sexual abuse" etc posts.

I mean those ones are pretty easy to spot. Other times people are trying to a grasp on how the opposite sex acts and behave. Since a lot of the men that come here for advice are very socially stunted due to a lot of circumstances, what may come off as misogynistic and sexist thoughts are basically clueless and social awkwardness misinterpreted.

As someone said earlier, education is key. Banning and vengeance is not going to help people.


I can work on this a bit tonight and get some help, too. As long as people are in earnest and openminded about the process I think it'll work out.



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27 May 2014, 4:51 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
It's the internet, I find that if you ignore the trolls they'll eventually move on for food or die of starvation.
That's half of moderation right there is community moderation-- if a troll creates a troll thread to bait you, just ignore it and it'll die from lack of bumps.


I'm very happy to say we are in complete agreement. I'll directly engage someone who is sincere, even if we are strongly opposed. But, any engagement with a troll is worse than a waste of time.

Post edit: I am absolutely amazed at how much time and effort trolls put into what they do. They acumulate bunches of user accounts, keep them for years, spend their time on nothing productive, argue points they don't care about. While the Internet is not a good place for them, what If they were out in the real world? I actually argue different issues in other places, and I am absolutely amazed by the trolls. They don't seem to have a single meaningful purpose in their life or sense that their existance should produce any positive effect. I'm aware that some troll as their exclusive life activity.



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27 May 2014, 5:28 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
MR20 wrote:
Hopper wrote:
I would like to see concrete examples of the kind of posts - actual, or imagined for sake of illustration - which contain something that those who are worried about moderation against sexism (let's face it: misogyny) think will be wrongly removed, perhaps even getting the poster into trouble.

Otherwise this all gets a bit vague.


Can you give me some examples of misogynistic posts that should be moderated? I mean other than "all women are sluts" "stay in the kitchen" "They're inferior and should be only allowed to give birth" "all women are evil" "you're to blame for your own rape/sexual abuse" etc posts.

I mean those ones are pretty easy to spot. Other times people are trying to a grasp on how the opposite sex acts and behave. Since a lot of the men that come here for advice are very socially stunted due to a lot of circumstances, what may come off as misogynistic and sexist thoughts are basically clueless and social awkwardness misinterpreted.

As someone said earlier, education is key. Banning and vengeance is not going to help people.


I can work on this a bit tonight and get some help, too. As long as people are in earnest and openminded about the process I think it'll work out.


We are very strongly opposed on some subjects and I've gotten a lot of guff, but I would like to keep this from turning into a flame fest with a bunch of users called out for exemplary purposes and put on the defensive. I think I can objectively argue all of the points I have made and anything anyone would take exception to. So, if you happen to think I have done anything that should be considered out-of-hand, I volunteer myself and my posts for a civil analysis and debate. I really think this whole process needs to go through a dry run, before anyone puts the mods in a tough position. And, in a non-tit-for-tat way, see if the application of whatever rules has any side effects that are unconsidered or unexpected by some. Plus, I hope this exercise will help discern feeling from fact, and perception from projection. At the same time, we may be able to pull things into clear context. If you want, feel free to make your side of the debate a team effort.



Last edited by SoftwareEngineer on 27 May 2014, 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ferrus91
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27 May 2014, 5:34 pm

SoftwareEngineer wrote:
Post edit: I am absolutely amazed at how much time and effort trolls put into what they do. They acumulate bunches of user accounts, keep them for years, spend their time on nothing productive, argue points they don't care about. While the Internet is not a good place for them, what If they were out in the real world? I actually argue different issues in other places, and I am absolutely amazed by the trolls. They don't seem to have a single meaningful purpose in their life or sense that their existance should produce any positive effect. I'm aware that some troll as their exclusive life activity.

It's attention seeking. We all do it in certain ways at times. Some people are just unsophisticated about how they go about it, or simply confuse provocativeness with wit.



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27 May 2014, 5:42 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
So it sounds like a written policy to guide moderation would be helpful, no? And a set of warnings: read the policy re misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc., you have X strikes and then you're out, sorry.

A sticky to do with the various -isms would be a good thing, too, with links to further reading.

I do think it's useful to keep in mind that some of the forum members are *autistic women*, and that it's a bit rich to expect them to come put up with ill treatment because a guy's autistic.


Agreed. :)

I look forward to seeing those examples too though...


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SoftwareEngineer
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27 May 2014, 5:51 pm

Ferrus91 wrote:
SoftwareEngineer wrote:
Post edit: I am absolutely amazed at how much time and effort trolls put into what they do. They acumulate bunches of user accounts, keep them for years, spend their time on nothing productive, argue points they don't care about. While the Internet is not a good place for them, what If they were out in the real world? I actually argue different issues in other places, and I am absolutely amazed by the trolls. They don't seem to have a single meaningful purpose in their life or sense that their existance should produce any positive effect. I'm aware that some troll as their exclusive life activity.

It's attention seeking. We all do it in certain ways at times. Some people are just unsophisticated about how they go about it, or simply confuse provocativeness with wit.


I see your point. A smidgen just to let your presence known is fine. I just can't believe the people who make trolling the center of their life. What did they do before the Internet?



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27 May 2014, 7:27 pm

SoftwareEngineer wrote:
I see your point. A smidgen just to let your presence known is fine. I just can't believe the people who make trolling the center of their life. What did they do before the Internet?

A small minority were probably obnoxious little arsewipes in real life too. But I'd say the vast majority would just wish they could act, but are held back by the shame that real life brings, when anonymity means such behaviour has consequences.



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27 May 2014, 9:49 pm

Well -- here's what I'm thinking. SoftwareEngineer, that was a noble offer. But I think it's easy enough to come up with generic "what not to say and why" examples, since so many of them repeat, and those should cover most of the waterfront. Along with "maybe a better idea, and why" examples.

What I'll do tomorrow is have a chat with the head of my university's women's center (if she's around); she's a good sort, discreet, sensible, not inclined to break out in a rash at every minor transgression, and helpful, and I think she'd be interested in helping out with something like this, offering suggestions, that sort of thing. They do a lot of men's programming, too, so I doubt all of this would be a novelty to her.

I agree that this shouldn't be rushed and should be debated, and that a dry run's a good idea. In fact I'd be in favor of a decent dry trial period, both to work out rough spots and so people can get used to it and start to get a sense of what "sexist" means, why it's a problem, and why the comments will be moderated.

How does that sound?



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27 May 2014, 10:12 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
Well -- here's what I'm thinking. SoftwareEngineer, that was a noble offer. But I think it's easy enough to come up with generic "what not to say and why" examples, since so many of them repeat, and those should cover most of the waterfront. Along with "maybe a better idea, and why" examples.

What I'll do tomorrow is have a chat with the head of my university's women's center (if she's around); she's a good sort, discreet, sensible, not inclined to break out in a rash at every minor transgression, and helpful, and I think she'd be interested in helping out with something like this, offering suggestions, that sort of thing. They do a lot of men's programming, too, so I doubt all of this would be a novelty to her.

I agree that this shouldn't be rushed and should be debated, and that a dry run's a good idea. In fact I'd be in favor of a decent dry trial period, both to work out rough spots and so people can get used to it and start to get a sense of what "sexist" means, why it's a problem, and why the comments will be moderated.

How does that sound?


Cool!