Theory of Mind

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So recently I had a screening and it was commented that my theory of mind (understanding that other people think differently and so on) was quite high. That was one of the reasons that he wasn't too keen on referring me elsewhere right away.

I am just curious as to what you guys thought of that. Granted, most of the questions I was asked about it was things like ?Lucy found the cookie jar and opened it but mum had put spaghetti in it. Lucy was sad. Lucy put the jar away and went to play with her toys. Jamie saw the jar and went to open it. What does Jamie expect to see in the cookie jar?? The answer is cookies, because it's a cookie jar and there should be cookies in it. Why would someone even consider putting spaghetti in there?

I am fully aware that people think differently and I can sort of put myself in someone else's shoes for a while but it's not without trying. I find it fascinating to hear people's views and thoughts, an example is when I quizzed someone in my class on their religion because I cannot understand how they can believe in such a thing.

So I'm curious, is this Theory of Mind stuff truly so decisive? Is it so strange that a 18 year old possible-aspergers girl can pass a test on it?

A lot of the Theory of Mind stuff is unsubstantiated and simplistic at best in my opinion (an outright misinterpretation at worst), particularly in the sense of being more applicable to children. Furthermore, after a lifetime of recognizing their cognitive differences, an adult is likely to have developed average or even somewhat superior theory of mind as a coping mechanism.

Lol, that's not really even theory of mind so much as theory of food storage.

Most of the available tests are made for kids, and most research is made on kids. Therefore they often won't really know how to accurately test it in adults. Also most professionals don't even consider that most of the less severe ToM issues stem from two people having difficulties understanding each other, because their brains function very differently from one another. NT's can rarely put themselves in the mind of autistics. Does that mean they also lack in ToM? (hint: yes, they do!)

I have some degree of difficulty with questions like this, I will explain why.

The question describes 3 human beings and their actions. In order to solve this question you need to change "Jamie", "Lucy" and "Mum" from cold hard words on the page, into imagined human beings with actions, beliefs and intentions. This process should be automatic, if you have a good theory of mind in place.

My brain automatically interprets Jamie etc. as being human beings, it has no problems with that.
It also automatically imagines concrete actions, like Jamie opening the jar. I can just see in my head, a small boy opening a jar. I understand that fine. I have transformed the words on the page into cognitive understanding
But no natural associations or concepts pop into my head for "Jamie expects..." or "Lucy was sad". In my imaginative mind, these are blanks. They remain as words, they are never transformed into mental concepts by my brain!

If you want to see how good a theory of mind you have, my suggestion is to just read through the question and be aware of what associations and concepts form in your brain in response to the wording. If you have a poor theory of mind, then it will feel to you like the question is hard to understand, and that your brain has not fully "processed" some of the ideas in the question.

That test was meant for children.
There should be Theory of Mind tests made for adults.
Not having good ToM is being socially naïve and could leave a person vulnerable.

Hi foxfield - I wonder if your problem could stem from the fact that it's (at least I think) - as I stated above - not a real theory of mind question. Wouldn't a theory of mind question be something along the lines of (keeping it simple) - how Jamie would handle these situations:

Sally's dog died and she doesn't want to go out and play.
Or Sally wants to go swimming, but Jamie wants to play ball.
Or Sally likes Sponge Bob but Jamie hates him.




The cookie jar question seems to be to be whether somebody simply understands what a cookie jar is. And nobody would be sad if they found spaghetti in a cookie jar, they would be surprised and or confused!

The question really seems like it was made up in a half ass way that many psychology tests are made up.

Edited for clarity.

I did question Anthony about the question itself and from what he said, typically people on the spectrum would say that they would expect to find spaghetti in the cookie jar because they knew what was in there. He does normally work with children, that is for sure!

That's interesting, it is a shame he didn't ask anything like that. Sally's dog died, so she would be upset because people get attached to animals (I've done it myself before) and theoretically she would want to grieve. Jamie should let her grieve (I guess) and not pressure her to play, even though he wanted to.

Wow, that did take thought. I do find it strange how people get so attached to animals. Even though I know I'm guilty of it myself.

Another quick question! (I know someone has already told me that they remember reading "that many higher functioning kids on the spectrum develop enough TOM to pass that test around age 9, give or take a year or two". In your experience, have you developed a theory of mind? (Personally I think you must if there are so many adults that were undiagnosed and still so many children/teenagers/early adults)

Some of those theory of mind tests seem to be little more than reading comprehension tests to me. I did see someone post a link here to one once where I couldn't figure out the answers to some of them because they required info that wasn't given in the story.

The theory of mind deficit is the "official" academic explanation of ASD. If you look in academic books (like Frith's Asperger's Syndrome), or get formal education in the subject you'll be told that a theory of mind deficit is the fundamental, singular, defining aspect of ASD.

Personally, I think it's crap. It's like Freud's psychotherapy in that it's not based on any physical/medical information. Nonethess, it is the official thepry , and unless you find a pro who is smart enough to realize that, at least, the theory is of little practical use, then you're going to get what you ran into (which is called the "Sally and Ann Test").

(I saw a parody once of the Sally and Anne test, where the crucial difference between NT and ASD children was that the NT kids would quickly notice opportunities for deception.)

Some autistic children have no concept of other people's minds, and therefore only see that because they know about the spaghetti, the spaghetti is known. They won't realise that there are several different people in the story. In those cases the child would answer that Jamie would expect to see spaghetti in the cookie jar, instead of realising that Jamie has a mind of his own, and therefore didn't know about the spaghetti, and should expect cookies.

Answer cookies: you possess ToM.
Anser spaghetti: you don't possess ToM.

Not saying this is an accurate test or anything, just that this is the way to interpret it.

I always get these wrong, because I answer quickly the non-ToM answer.
But in the same amount of time that I use to answer, NTs would answer quickly the ToM answer.
So they have spontaneous ToM, and I don't.
I have to think about it to answer the ToM answer, but I always answer before I think about it.

I think Theory of Mind is crap too.

So if you were asked that question you would say he knows there's spaghetti in there?

Yes

Interesting.

If that cookie/spaghetti thing confuses you, how do you negotiate life? How do you not just assume that everyone knows everything that you know? Hypothetically, if somebody would ask you for your phone number or did you have a happy childhood, do you wonder why they ask what they should already know?

Sorry if the questions sound dumb, I'm just trying to understand.