no difference between autistic and NT brains - large study

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cathylynn
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Janissy
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01 Nov 2014, 3:31 pm

I'm posting a link from Discover noting the same thing mostly because of the comments section.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuro ... FVCYPnF90o

I honestly don't know what to think and what the reality is.



progaspie
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01 Nov 2014, 4:35 pm

Janissy wrote:
I'm posting a link from Discover noting the same thing mostly because of the comments section.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuro ... FVCYPnF90o

I honestly don't know what to think and what the reality is.


But the article states that there are small differences between the two brains. So what are these small differences? It doesn't go into specifics so I wouldn't draw any conclusions from the article.



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01 Nov 2014, 4:59 pm

I've said that many times and no one would listen to me.



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03 Nov 2014, 12:50 am

This is because the differences between autistic and neurotypical brains are largely functional instead of structural at the ~1 mm resolution of MRI. Most neuroimaging studies finding HFA vs. NT differences are from functional MRI.


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03 Nov 2014, 2:13 am

Yep......that's true.



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03 Nov 2014, 2:28 am

btbnnyr wrote:
This is because the differences between autistic and neurotypical brains are largely functional instead of structural at the ~1 mm resolution of MRI. Most neuroimaging studies finding HFA vs. NT differences are from functional MRI.

*nod*


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03 Nov 2014, 10:27 am

Well of course, the so-called higher functioning segment of Autism, at the level of IQ of 85 or above, only comprises about 39% of the autism spectrum, so if that is the higher functioning folks they are talking about the study is very limited as far as the entire spectrum goes.

The main issue though, is Autism is defined in the DSM as a disorder of behavioral symptoms specific to difficulty with non-verbal communication, developing and retaining peer appropriate relationships, the sharing of interests, yes reciprocating interests both ways, as well as sharing accomplishments with others, and Restricted Repetitive Behavioral Interests.

So it's categorized as a neurological disorder and defined as a behavioral disorder.

The symptoms of sensory integration disorder are now in the criteria, in the DSM5, but still not mandatory for a diagnosis.

It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to understand that there are indefinite numbers of causal factors that cause behavioral disorder symptoms in human beings per reciprocal social communication.

And research does now show, even taking so called lower functioning autism into account that the environment plays a much larger role than previously studied, in twin studies.

The refrigerator mother hypothesis by Kanner was largely discounted, conversely, as physiological symptoms were correlated at that time, but since then, even in primate studies, cold mothers or a lack of nurturing environment at the age of 0 to 2 years does most definitely equal symptoms very similar to the human diagnosed behavioral symptoms of Autism.

And modern science also shows this now in human beings, where the connections in the brain, or wiring used as a rather loose metaphor, which is NOT VISIBLE AND MEASURABLE AS SUCH IN MRI'S, IS NOT MADE IN THE OXYTOCIN way of social bonding and motivator in intrinsic reward to socially reciprocate communication throughout life, when children are NOT IN A NURTURING ENVIRONMENT WITH LOTS OF TOUCHING, HUGGING, AND DIRECT LOVING INTERACTION, additionally leading to problems with addiction in many of these children as well.

And of course it is now shown that bullying in school age children can cause epigenetic effects such as symptoms of schizophrenia and even structural changes in the brain presenting themselves in later adulthood as reported by Tom Insel, director of the NIMH, National Institutes of Mental Health.

Epigenetics and neuroplasticity is a fairly new science that one can mention to their attending doctor or psychiatrist and chances are they have never even heard about it, as that is the problem with specialization and medicine and even science in general.

Professionals in the field just do not have time to do research out of their specialized areas, which brings a very narrow view of what is out there in the research field OVERALL.

The most interesting study I personally came across that it is highly unlikely even these folks that did this study have even heard of is that when the mechanical cognition (analytical problem solving) pathway (as metaphor as you cannot see it on an MRI) is used the social cognition or empathy pathway is repressed. And one used to the exclusion of the other, withers the other away, in the simple metaphor of use it or lose it.

But truly in human common sense this is nothing new, as when I started studying computer science in the 80's there were postings of actual cautions in the computer lab, to get out and interact with humans in flesh and blood life, lest you lose your humanity.

The same signs were posted in engineering study halls, with my friends who were studying that major.

Human beings have an incredibly plastic organ of adaptation to change in both positive and negative epigenetic and neuroplastic changes.

Humans are social animals, and evolutionarily speaking, non-verbal communication as physical intelligence IS THE MOST important type of social communication for humans to cooperatively interact.

So using simple human common sense, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you only use your fingers and eyes, sitting in front of a two dimensional box, most of the day for either work or play, or education, that one loses their potential level of skills in real flesh and blood non-verbal communication.

Additionally, humans are competitive animals, and to be strong for survival means confidence in interacting with other human beings with body language relaxed, head held high, and respect gained from other members of the species.

Not unlike, other primates, the Bonobo being our closest primate relative with a similar empathy gene and brain structures to enhance primate empathy that no other primates share.

In my opinion Simon Baron Cohen is spot on with his systemizing and empathizing model of autism spectrum disorder in general, but what he fails to take into account is that empathy is not a static inherent human attribute, and that it can be increased or decreased through epigenetic and neuroplastic adaptation to environmental change during the course of one lifetime, even when there are no structural differences in the brain.

Using my life as an example of this as a child who had a significant language delay until age 4, with difficulty speaking, and understanding output of my own nonverbal communication, the changes by the real force of epigenetics and neuroplasticity as empirically measured by EQ test, AQ test, and the not scientifically recognized Aspie Quiz are simply astounding in change through the course of one life.

When I was in middle school and secondary school, as my intrinsic ability to excel on tests in school, and get social rewards in class for doing so increased, my social abilities decreased at almost the same rate. Although I have to use my memory, which is extremely good by the way, to put my self back in that time and space, I probably would have scored in the upper thirties on the AQ test back in those days.

When I moved to working with the general public, and cognitively learning how to adapt and interact with a wide variety of personalities, for the two decades I did that in the 80's and 90's it probably moved down in the high 20's out of so-called Autistic screening land.

But when I moved into computer life in an office for half a decade in the 2000's I did finally take the AQ quiz in real time and scored a 36.

After total human exhaustion also known as Autistic Burnout in the late 2000's until just a little over a year ago, I scored a 44 to 45 on the AQ quiz, a 195 on the Aspie Quiz, and the mid 50's on the EQ Emotional Intelligence test.

I loved my life of working with the general public and connecting to people in those two decades, and often reported it here on this website, in nostalgic ways of wanting to get back to that place in my life, as I hated not being able to connect to people in my life, the severe sensory integration problems with humidity, sound, light, and touch, along with 19 medically documented disorders, many of which were directly related to stress and human exhaustion, aka Autistic burnout.

I came here to figure out what the HELL WAS WRONG WITH ME. I KNEW I DID NOT WANT TO BE THIS WAY, AND WANTED CHANGE AND WAS DESPERATE TO CONNECT BACK TO HUMANITY.

So yeah, I found answers here, and on many other sites associated with Autism. I listened to people's life stories, and determined I was going to fix my issue in reciprocal social communication.

What I came to find out after experiencing the incredible epigenetic and neuroplastic change in my life, just a little over a year ago, was that my difficulties were specifically associated with a lack of physical intelligence, repression of emotions, and now the scientifically understood fact that physical intelligence and emotional intelligence feed each other in a continuous feedback loop, if you will.

I started to do novel movement in walking in reverse and TAI CHI like movements with my whole body, listening to inspiring music that also generates human emotion, and suddenly eventually I gained ability in non-verbal communication I never ever had before.

Additionally I find my emotions in poetic expression, that I was never able to express before in an epigenetic/neuroplastic change that science still has no grasp of, but the key is, this poetic, physical, and emotional intelligence that I did not have before, dramatically changed my scores on the AQ test, Aspie Quiz, and EQ test, that I documented here, when going through the incredible human change I went through; and additionally, personality inventory as well.

I moved from 44 to 45 on the AQ quiz to 11; 195 to 92 on the Aspie Quiz; and mid 50's on the EQ test to 95. And I also moved from INTJ personality to ENFP, almost a 180 degree turn on personality as well, from extreme introvert to extreme extrovert.

Basically I am now at my 'NORMA'L INNATE POTENTIAL OF HUMAN BEING.

And it goes much further than that, as my ability to tolerate humidity, sound, light, and even touch to some degree is now incredible in comparison as I don't only go rave dancing, I lead it alone, totally sober, while the other folks get 'drunked up' enough to participate every Thursday night. And as they say photos or it didn't happen, and yes I have all of this documented as such on my blogs, for anyone who thinks I'm just making this up.

So yes, except for some issues with RRBI's and Sensory Integration Disorder per tactile sensitivity, I have cured the most socially functionally disabling aspects of the Autism that I was professionally diagnosed with at age 47.

And it at least in my case, the evidence is strong, that even with a language delay, substantial problems with Sensory Integration, and coherent reciprocal communication speech problems throughout most of my life, that the most disabling aspects of Autism are indeed curable, as the most functionally disabling aspects of Autism WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF RESTRICTED CULTURAL ENVIRONMENT for me.

SO YES, THE DISORDER IS CULTURE, NOT ME.

I just figured it out by FINALLY NOT SPECIALIZING IN ONE AREA OF RESEARCH, AND NOT DISCOUNTING ANY OTHER AREA OF RESEARCH AS A POTENTIAL BREAKTHROUGH FOR ME.

But I'm just one person.

The potential causal factors for the behavioral symptoms of Autism are beyond count, and will likely always remain that way, as culture is getting more complex by the second. And the synergy of that for human disorders of all kinds is also increasing as we speak.

And additionally as time goes by, people are specializing more in narrow fields of study, not having the time to venture out of their restricted areas of knowledge.

If I had not retired, there is no way I could have cured myself of the most functionally disabling aspects of my Autism, as I did not even have time for retrospective thinking at all, as I was in flight or fight mode all the time, just to survive.

Yes, survival mode is the lowest level of Maslow's hierarchy of human development. And science now shows that chronic stress does eventually lead to sensory integration problems in folks, autistic or non-autistic, alike, even down to the light and sound sensitivity.

The worst possible scenario for a person who has Autism in my opinion, is that they were born with it and cannot change; a self-fulfilling prophecy of ideology for sure, in just my opinion, and of course real life experience as documented here.


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Last edited by aghogday on 03 Nov 2014, 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Nov 2014, 10:49 am

A lot of studies come out about autism. Often with conflicting or misleading conclusions.


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03 Nov 2014, 2:51 pm

I had real difficulty reading the huge amount of text and had to stop but the idea that general practice doctors and psychiatrists have never heard of epigenetics is odd?

Most GPs and psychiatrists would have at least passing knowledge of epigenetics and psychiatrists have knowledge of the concept of neuroplasticity simply through there work. There are medications that are even suspected to be neuroregenerative (psychotropic) even. It would be a minority of psychiatrists who would be unfamiliar with the concept. So im saying if you run into these professionals, they probably are not representative.


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03 Nov 2014, 3:41 pm

SignOfLazarus wrote:
I had real difficulty reading the huge amount of text and had to stop but the idea that general practice doctors and psychiatrists have never heard of epigenetics is odd?

Most GPs and psychiatrists would have at least passing knowledge of epigenetics and psychiatrists have knowledge of the concept of neuroplasticity simply through there work. There are medications that are even suspected to be neuroregenerative (psychotropic) even. It would be a minority of psychiatrists who would be unfamiliar with the concept. So im saying if you run into these professionals, they probably are not representative.


Sorry about that, but thanks for attempting to read what I wrote, as I wasn't actually responding to you directly.

I have a form of Autism associated with Hyperlexia, where I actually read 10 to 15 times faster than the average human being, and as a lifelong pianist, although I have great difficulty with handwriting, I type up to speeds of 130 words per minute, when motivated as such.

I have no idea now what it would be like to live any other way; however, before a typewriter, and loss of effective vision and hearing, writing and oral presentation was the farthest thing from my interest as a visual thinker and an input guy/problem solver, instead of out-putter in ways of worded written and paragraphed verbal spoken communication.

Yes, so my interest in epigenetics and neuroplasticity, is motivated strongly by my own personal life experience.

I deal directly with many doctors and psychology professionals who have attempted to help me in the past, when there seemed like no escape from my illnesses, and I find that they are very far behind, on any research in the last couple of decades, as truly they just do not have time for research seeing a patient ever few moments, raising families, and other real life responsibilities. And epigenetics and neuroplasticity are definitely products of the last couple of decades of research, although of course they existed long before the terms became available, in science.

So, I do not blame them for not being caught up on the state of science, as is, but never the less, it does harm patients that are not in the know.

Unfortunately, the medical practice is mostly designed around pharmaceuticals as the next big thing, instead of real life solutions to the root causes of illness, that science shows now is mostly stress and repression of human nature, most specifically human emotions and physical intelligence in the ways of emotions and moving that can definitely reduce the need for medicines to truly cure human maladies, from root cause, instead of just medicating symptoms.

Eastern remedies for human DISease per the arts of TAI CHI, Yoga, Acupuncture, etc. have understood this for thousands of years, in real life practice, and modern medical science is finally just starting to catch up.

Yogis in the Tibetan Mountains have been steaming heat off their robed bodies in icy pools of waters and controlling the electrical activity of their brains for thousands of years, as well.

Physician heal thy self, is they way humans lived for scores of thousands of years.

Modern Medicine in many ways, is functionally disabling humans beings, similar to culture and technology, overall.

Hard to escape, but quite an escape when one makes it back to the real strength of un-domesticated human being.

Sorry, if this too is too many words, but I write for the audience, as I have been through literal human hell and survived it, and any part of the information I provide, is certainly worth my time, if it helps anyone reading here, particularly like me, where as before, I would only read, anywhere I went for knowledge, and never communicate much in output.

There are plenty of autistic folks and their relatives like that reading in the background like me, who can read an average post of mine, like me, in several seconds, but do not post at all.

But again, that's the positive part of hyperlexia, the negative part CAN BE the output part, that I struggled with for around 4 or 5 decades. But adapting to change is survival, and I continue to do that, as required.

There is a lot of freedom of different minds expressing different ways of thinking here, and I for one am currently just the guy who reads and types real fast, relating volumes of information stored in crystalized knowledge over decades.

But again, there are different ways of thinking, and different ways of expressing oneself both in volume and content.

And I for one, never have a problem with any other person's communication, as input as such, and I consider myself blessed as such to be that way, but no, I am not going to repress my basic human nature in communication now, to please any particular part of the reading audience here.

We do live in a twitter verse way of life now, overall, where even two sentences is too much for some folks, and that is certainly not their fault, as culture makes what most of us are, whether we consciously realize it or not, as we go through life.

Interestingly, modern science in some studies shows now that human beings have the average attention span of SLIGHTLY LESS THAN a gold fish now, as well.

Humans are evolved for intermittent gratification, not instant gratification, and the price of that pleasure is truly often reduced ability for focus and attention.

And to be clear I am not suggesting you think I should change, but also to be clear I am well aware that some folks cannot nearly digest what I communicate here, and expect that, as again that is just part of innate human diversity and the cultural making of human being as is. :)


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03 Nov 2014, 8:41 pm

On the downside, this is going to provide ammunition for the autism deniers out there.


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03 Nov 2014, 8:41 pm

On the downside, this is going to provide ammunition for the autism deniers out there.


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08 Nov 2014, 2:55 am

yup..thats true



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10 Nov 2014, 9:56 pm

Current brain scanning technology is really pretty crude compared to what people imagine. You could have a brain with zero connections between any of the neurons (you'd be utterly dead) and you'd never be able to tell from medical scanning technology (there are some new, research-level scans that would, though). Scans nowadays are only good for large-scale things like bullets, bleeding blood vessels or macroscopic lesions (MS, anoxic damage) or tumors. The point being that things like ASD are almost certainly a matter of the brain's microscopic wiring.



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14 Nov 2014, 5:20 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Current brain scanning technology is really pretty crude compared to what people imagine. You could have a brain with zero connections between any of the neurons (you'd be utterly dead) and you'd never be able to tell from medical scanning technology (there are some new, research-level scans that would, though). Scans nowadays are onlyod for large-scale things like bullets, bleeding blood vessels or macroscopic lesions (MS, anoxic damage) or tumors. The point being that things like ASD are almost certainly a matter of the brain's microscopic wiring.


That is why I am not buying the "no difference hypothesis".

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