Question about feminism.

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What do the feminists want?

Equal rights or more rights?

It's just sometimes I feel as though the feminists forget about men especially when it comes down to things like domestic violence.

(I apologise in advance if this topic has been exhausted before)

Well it probably depends on who you ask

Imagine if you asked this question but about communism, communists probably paint a much rosier picture of their beliefs than would be observed in reality by everyone else. It's all about equality tho!

Is feminism ever finished? Is there ever going to be a day when they close up shop and say mission accomplished? The answer of course is no ad that's why you get into silliness like fart rape and microaggressions.

Feminism is a vast, internet-based movement with wildly different ideologies despite all being under one label. There are some feminists who acknowledge men's issues just as often as women's issues.

This is a very good question I'll try and explain based on what I've found.

Those that would openly state they are not interested in equality, are few and far between: Theoretically they would fit into supremacists and separatists. There were group that had a element of this especially some of the direct action groups in the 80s. However this is more associated by other identity activist (e.g. race) rather than activists for women.

So after that I'd separate into roughly three camps:

1. Those that see women's rights in respect to all other rights including men's as a societal problem, and understand the dynamic nature of discrimination. A proponent is Christina Hoff Sommers, she has been critical of second wave feminism. I think she makes a lot of sense.
2. Those that think in terms of broad concept such as "The Patriarchy", which they they attribute as holding women back. They think that a more affirmative policy is needed to redress this. The problem is this doesn't reflect the true nature of discrimination, "The Patriarchy" is quite a vague concept which lumps a whole group of people into one box. Many of the policies they are pushing violate the principle for rights. Affirmative action tries to get equality by initially giving extra rights to one group to try an redress the balance. The problem is this has many negative side effects and if you don't understand who being discriminated against you could be kicking the people who are already down.
3. A more radical version of 2 with overt misandry and sometimes racial tones, and arguably the questionable concept and perceptions of 2 feed this type of bigotry.

So yes some are pushing for special rights, but they don't see it that way. However I think their thinking is way of base and isn't a good approach to rights.

According to Oxford Dictionary "The advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."

In my opinion if what someone is advocating for is outside that definition then they are either doing it wrong or it's not feminism.

Someone can advocate for something with good intent, but their arguments can still are at odds with the spirit of the movement.

In any case there are number of ways advocacy can be done badly:
1. Policy that violates the principle of rights.
2. Making people tread on eggshells, not giving people the benefit of the doubt.
3. Being unnecessarily divisive and generalist.
4. Not properly researching the issue, relying to heavily on theories and perceptions, especially when presented as fact.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 12 Oct 2015, 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

0_equals_true

That's what I meant when I said they're doing it wrong.

Thank you...It is all very interesting.

Except that one can hold the opinion that the very notion of "rights" is a deeply flawed and ultimately counterproductive ethical construct, and still be a feminist.

I wish I could make my viewpoints but I will be vilified and seen as the bad guy so I shall remain silent, I have no voice, I am a man after all. Side note when men face issues of rape, sexual harassment sexism and abusive relationships its swept under the rug because nobody cares because its not a womans issue.

A lot of the newer feminists label Christina Hoff Sommers as an anti-feminist. I think it's sad because I personally like her, and I don't say that about many outspoken feminists these days. I believe we should all have equal rights, regardless of gender, skin color or anything else.. I don't know why that's such a hard concept to grasp. We should just have them already. Many newer feminists seem to be against equal rights and full of false statistics.

People can hold any notion they want. It doesn't change anything. I don't really understand what you're getting at.

Third wave feminism is blatantly female supremacist.

What are the "hot" issues for feminists today?

Look at "Donglegate".

Look at Anita Sarkeesian and Zoey Quinn aka Chelsea Valkenburg crying to the UN about people disagreeing with them on the internet.

Look at "Manspreading".

Look at "Mansplaining".

Google the article about Swedish feminists want to ban men from urinating while standing upright because of "hygiene issues".

And it just goes on and on...

Then you take a glance at certain parts of the middle east where women have to wear a freaking tent or they get stoned to death.

Or certain parts of Africa where womens genitals are mutilated.

Or India where acid throwing is a thing, or widow pyres.

You hear very little from the feminists about this. I certainly would like to hear them tackle these issues. Then we can talk about first world problems.

Am I awful that I laughed at that? Fart rape? Dare I ask? I'm even too paranoid to google that - my ISP is ever-watchful.
I always assumed feminism, genuine feminism at least, was about equality. Originally about women having all the rights men do, not denied votes or docked pay because they have a vagina. Maybe that's simplistic of me, but yes, as above, there is some pointless mincing going on in feminism which entirely misses the point.



Not at all. I always love it when I see men wearing the This is what a feminist looks like shirts. I am not going to let anyone tell me I can't support feminism because I look like an ordinary man. Anyone telling you men can't be feminists is being anti-feminist in my view. No one likes an elitist/supremacist apart from the chronically insecure.

I'll try to be helpful here, so please don't take offense.

[opinion=mine]

At it's core, the concept of "feminism" seems to center on a few basic ideas:

1) The same opportunities for women as for men in the areas of education, employment, and housing.

2) The same attitudes toward women as for men in the areas of respect, trust, and personal boundaries.

3) The same pay for women as for men with respect to the same job, same education, and same seniority.

4) Special dispensation with regard to reproductive issues - men don't menstruate, nor do they become pregnant.

In these respects, feminism just makes sense; but it often breaks down in the following ways.

1) In order to compensate for past discrimination, programs like Affirmative Action were imposed to give preference in education and employment (hiring and promoting) to women.

2) Personal respect and trust have to be earned, even when a professional title grants a modicum of respect and trust to the recipient. People often use their position as an excuse to bully and intimidate others, while also demanding that those others respect them.

3) Being an office manager is not the same being an engineer, yet the jobs are often considered the same because both are performed in office environments. The former requires leadership and people skills, while the latter requires higher mathematics (trigonometry and calculus) and occasional manual labor.

4) Feminine discomfort is often abused as an excuse to get out of strenuous or unpleasant tasks. Cramps that last all month require a doctor's attention, and "trying to get pregnant" is not a valid excuse for not doing any work.

[/opinion]

Yes, I expect to be accused of "mansplaining" and misogyny for these opinions. Yet, they are based on decades of observation as a degreed professional in office environments.

Feminism itself is a touchy subject, and it can not be discussed effectively without examining every aspect of it from all available perspectives, no matter how unpleasant those aspects may be. Sometimes, you just have to turn the rock over to expose what's underneath.

Not all feminists believe that "rights" are even a thing, so any definition of feminism making explicit appeal to the concept of "rights" will necessarily exclude some feminists, making it a bad definition.