Theory of mind - can we learn that?

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Hi,

I only recently realized I am probably on the spectrum and waiting for diagnosis. Asperger syndrome would explain all of my issues. I remember my mum used to teach me the poroper behaviour but no attention has been paid to my thinking process. Only now, in my late 30's, I am learning to accept what I somehow always knew but was trying to dismiss assuming it's a sign of serious mental health issues (my dad has been diagnosed bipolar when he was 50 and he has really deteriorating, but only now I think he in fact has Asperger syndrome and never got proper support).

So what I wanted to say is: I find it hard (almost imossible) to imagine that other people have any thoughts/opinions of me. I mean, of course, logically I know they must have, but I don't 'feel' it. That's why I may go to work having my hair or clothes in a mess and believe no one will notice. Or I may behave in a way that looks silly and later I'm totally shocked that others thinks that I am silly.

I don't have much of a problem with interviews or similar situations, where I know others will be forming opinion of me, but otherwise I'm totally lost. Can I actually learn that? As constantly thinking about appropriate way of behaving is just too draining.

Most people form opinions of other people right away and unlike me they are usually right. It is called "first impressions". Another way of saying the same thing is that every time you first meet a person, it is a less formal then a job interview but the same processes is occurring, they are judging you by how you present and the "vibe" you give off. Bieng aware of this is good, bieng hyper aware as autistics are wired to be can be counterproductive in that we give off a "vibe" of bieng tense, paronoid and not confident.

Understanding you are always bring interviewed is one way, the other method to compensate for poor theory of mind is using pattern thinking and that is a matter of experience. You will figure out in some cases a pattern, when I did this people complemented me or became my friend, when I did this they thought I was silly.

You can learn it if you treat it like a puzzle, neutral, something to sort out. However it will require thought, and planning.

I think the exhaustion is less the actual thinking and more worrying about getting it wrong, though not sure that helps much as it is hard not to worry about it.

Well, you both mean 'learning behaviour'. When I was growing up I was at some point obsessed with 'doing things right' and that was extremely stressful, for others as well I believe. Now I am much more relaxed and that's what is happening, I just forget that my behaviour (not only when I first meet someone) is being judged by others.

So I meant more permanent learning like exercises or something?

Yes, Asperger people can learn it, just it's later and non instincive. The core basis of TOM is already learned in an adult, Asperger people are just worse at the more complicated stuff. Basically if you are in the same environment, among the people you know and care for, you are able to figure out long-term with some reasoning and asking what they think or imagine. Sometimes you can do some detective work, to know the person's character and motivations. If you know this, your short term reaction to them will be also more appropiate, and after a while you don't have to constantly think about what you're doing. It works only with people you know though. Any time I changed school or work, they regarded me as very weird or rejected at the first sight, but after we got used to each other I managed to "get" some of them, and they got accustomed to me.

All that regarding the fact that I do not have full Asperger's, just traits of it. But it is more or less true.

Asperger people have empathy, just not the cognitive one - sometimes you feel that something is not right, just don't have any idea what went wrong and how to act on it. With friends, the long-term relation, and traits such as loyalty is much more important than impressions, and this you can do quite well.

If you can't figure out what bothers them, I find it is good to ask. This is a revelation I made in my early thirties, and I will tell you that works wonders, also there are a few safe questions if you want to do the guesswork. If they can't figure out what bothers you, just communicate clearly what you feel. This is where sincerity of an Aspie is a good thing. This is not very easy as some people (me certainly) have trouble telling hunger from anger, and headache from sadness. If you communicate to NT thought, there is a chance they will see more than you.

This is important. NTs have a sh***y TOM about Aspies. Most of them assume they react like other NTs. With me for example, they can't tell when I'm afraid. I stop talking and seem very calm, and they think that I am indifferent, or even relaxed, when all I want to is flee or even faint.

For people you don't know there is a plethora of standard reactions. Any book on manners will be ok. There also interner tutorials on how to keep eye contact and body posture. In any way, people you don't know won't expect anything deeper than superficial interactions, and listening to them if you don't know what to say, seems like you pay attention and makes a good impression. While you can't make seem yourself NT that way, you come across as that quirky good guy.

Yes, that's what is happening to me: when I know someone well, I can imagine how they feel and react approprietely (still not always, he he). With a new person - not a clue. And yes, in new places people need a few months to accept me.

'Good manners' are only working up to a point. People interactions are so complex that you can't rely just on that for more than 15 minutes, or you're appear boring/infelxible/desinterested.

Body language and tone of voice - I can only seem to be 'myself' or someone totally different. If I try to disply confidence, I end up as a b***h. Or I'm having a chat and want to ask someone a question to show that I'm interested in what they have to say - and I immediately know that my tone sounds like I'm being suspicious/questioning/nosy. It maybe because I don't really want to chat with them?

Oh well, maybe I'd just get te diagnosis and start expalining to people that this is who I am?

It is only a matter of conscious practice. No, you will not look "normal" all the time, yes, you will be regarded as "the Sheldon", but it is possible to achieve some sort of acceptance while still being yourself. The more you learn, the less blunders you commit.

With body language I mean the basics. Like, not turning away and walking outside the room in the middle of the talk, because you have finished what you wanted to say. I used to do that -_- Or closing up too much on somebody, or waving hands nervously. Instead of maintaing eye contact you can fake it and look a little below, on the nose/cheeks (?). People don't notice that. It is painful to learn how much you can keep it. As a younger girl, I came across as flirty, staring in people's eyes too much. Especially that I am a small blonde and some were flattered thinking I might be interested. Then surprised when I started to avoid them in panic.

The only important people are those you know anyway. Navigating at work is pain in the ass, but gradually you get to know them and vice versa.
That said, if you gain a lot of technical skills, or some fortune, any eccentricism you show will be ascribed to your apparent technical prowess or money.
Telling the diagnosis does not work; people just stare, and if you start explaining, they get bored or weirded out. What works is "I am not the social kind of person, you know." or "Excuse me, I did not hear that, can you repeat?" or, kindly - "I am a straightforward kind of guy, metaphors are lost on me, did you mean it?". Something along these lines. Most of the time people understand shy, introverted, or straightforward (all true!), but they have no idea about what Asperger is, or a wrong idea. There is about few dozens of such stock phrases and they mostly work.

I was in a brief relationship with a woman who moderates panel discussions on a wide variety of topics, often with guests of mutually exclusive opinions. It was her role to engage these people in an argument, but not let one side easily win- otherwise the discussion might either be over too quickly, or the guest might punch each other.

anyway, she explained to me the importance of trying to let everyone keep face, because fighting would only occur if one party felt he had his back against a wall.
So she tried to find ways out for them, by asking questions that would suggest a certain thing which maybe the guest hadn't thought of, at the time.
She was drained and her head was buzzing after each of these events. It looked stressful, even to this NT woman who had a lot of practice at her job.

Anyway, I've taken her advice to heart, esp. Job-wise, where I since try to make sure no one gets upset in discussions about new projects. Avoiding anyone having his "back against the wall", and trying to seek new angles for other people has proven a helpful tactic for me.

Needless to say, my relationship with this woman was doomed from the start, as I just don't work like most people. She assumed, everuthing I was doing had some implied meaning, was a piece of communication - where most of the time, I was just doing my things. When I wasn't talking, she assumed it was to punish her or something.
NT communication is so complicated!! All they do is all day is communicate. No wonder it needs aspie scientists and aspie artists to get stuff done!

Anyway, when I told her, things weren't working out, and that I couldn't deal with an NT partner, because it made me stressfully self-aware and seriously depressed, she asked me why I had been so nice to her. I answered that that was how people in a relationship were supposed to treat each other - apparently that is not necessarily implicated in the concept of "relationship".

Well mi opinion is that as far clothes for the most part just dress comfy. If it's formal, ask a trusted person or the Internet.
Theory of mind honestly es something nobody has. We don't know what's is like to be neurotypical, they don't know what's it like to be blind, who don't know what's is like to be dyslexia. So no we can't learn it. However we can ask for guide lines in certain community settings. Like in the Deaf community es polite to just walk thru a conversation instead of watching y waiting.

i way to develop ToM is to read novels or even to watch movies with serious subjects. if you can identify with the characters, it helps you to be able to do this in real life.

I didn't have much of a concept of theory of mind up to young adult age.

Through my adulthood, I gradually developed this concept, and both kinds of empathy as well.

Yes, we all can learn with practice.

Uta Frith is a leading expert in the theory of mind. She has videos on YouTube and has written many article on autism. They are worth checking out.

Society is rather good at letting you know you aren't conforming to the norm. After enough hints , you start to analyze everything you do, wear act ..... You might improve.