why does america have to be great
i foresee an ensuing shitstorm, so i may or may not reply to comments here. but i don't mean this as a provocation, this is actually something that i don't understand
"make america great again" was trump's slogan, as most everybody knows. but i've noticed that americans on both sides of the political divide tend to agree that "america should be great", and mostly differ on their belief on who can accomplish it and how. the tone usually seems to imply that it's not in the sense of "a great place to live", but in the sense of "a great nation in the world"
but... why does it even matter? or do i misunderstand what people mean when they use those words?
Each side is committed to America's imperial project, but in different ways. Basically, Americans have a sense of entitlement and arrogance, they believe they are the shining city on the hill, so they believe America should be on top of everything. Many Americans have become aware in recent years that America's power relative to the rest of the world is declining, which alarms them because they may lose claim to being number one, so they want to restore it, by any means necessary.
In the worst case scenario, I imagine America becoming something like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.
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In the worst case scenario, I imagine America becoming something like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.
I imagine it would be closer to an Orwellian interpretation of the Soviet union, only with solar panels, wind turbines and expensive coffee in place of steel, iron and coal.
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auntblabby
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that's my impression. but still it confuses me. because what difference does it make to individual citizens if the country is or isn't "number one in the world"? why do people even care? is there any actual reason for it or is it just one more sports league?
Making America great again means to me fixing our military so we can protect ourselves, bringing down our debt, and taking care of our own country and people first for a change with jobs and affordable healthcare. No one even respects America anymore. If something doesn't change, we will become a third world country.
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and that is exactly what i don't understand: why does it matter?
no one respects my country. it's annoying. but that's about it: it's annoying, because i get associated with it. i'm not a politician, and i'm not a millionaire, so it doesn't actually affect my life. from my point of view, between the world respecting your country and your country respecting you, the former is almost entirely irrelevant
dossa
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My two cents... patriotism and programming. That's why. Maybe indoctrination and nationalism would be better words, but a lot of people in the states get pissed at you when you use those two...
Fact is, here anyway, we live in a world where kids are told from early on in school that not only is our country great, but the best place in the world for people to live. It's the home of the free, the land of the brave, a place where poor/miserable/opportunity lacking immigrants can come and make tons of money and live that american dream. They play it up like the only dream any sane person would have is the american one and god help you if you say anything else. Those 'MERICA!' screamer will rip your face off if you speak anything less than praises in regards to this country. Dramatic... maybe... but there is truth in the fact that people get crappy with you if you say less than great things about this country and you live here. A lot of people fly flags in their yards, slap bumper stickers on their trucks, and will even decorate their neighborhoods with pro america items. To me, this kind of patriotism boarders on nationalism, but I am a terrible patriot.
Weird tirade aside... if you grow up completely immersed in a culture that force feeds you the idea that you are not only great, but the greatest it will undoubtedly put some kind of pressure on people to uphold those ideas. It will undoubtedly cause confusion/distress if and when the greatness thing gets called into question because that is not something you are supposed to do. I'm not sure if people in this country really care if other countries think we are the greatest. I think it is more important to people who feel that way to be able to think they are the greatest just because they think and say so. I think it's probably part blow to the ego and part being forced to confront the idea that what we have all been force fed and immersed in might not be true. I mean... we were a bunch of disgruntled colonists who won our freedom from a huge world power. We made crazy huge leaps for awhile there with government, settling, infrastructure, steel, transportation, manufacturing, space exploration, available health care... for years as a baby country (we are relatively new comparatively) we rocked it. That will give you a big head. If that''s all you know as a citizen, what else are you gong to think... we have always been what we view as great so to be anything else seems somehow fundamentally wrong.
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and that is exactly what i don't understand: why does it matter?
no one respects my country. it's annoying. but that's about it: it's annoying, because i get associated with it. i'm not a politician, and i'm not a millionaire, so it doesn't actually affect my life. from my point of view, between the world respecting your country and your country respecting you, the former is almost entirely irrelevant
If other countries don't respect you, then they can push you around. They think they can bully you - that's where the military comes in - you have to be able to show you can defend yourself. You don't see Russia or China not improving themselves. Who wants to live in a poor third world country - especially when you didn't start out as one? It's called having pride in your country.
_________________
Me grumpy?
I'm happiness challenged.
Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.
Fact is, here anyway, we live in a world where kids are told from early on in school that not only is our country great, but the best place in the world for people to live. It's the home of the free, the land of the brave, a place where poor/miserable/opportunity lacking immigrants can come and make tons of money and live that american dream. They play it up like the only dream any sane person would have is the american one and god help you if you say anything else. Those 'MERICA!' screamer will rip your face off if you speak anything less than praises in regards to this country. Dramatic... maybe... but there is truth in the fact that people get crappy with you if you say less than great things about this country and you live here. A lot of people fly flags in their yards, slap bumper stickers on their trucks, and will even decorate their neighborhoods with pro america items. To me, this kind of patriotism boarders on nationalism, but I am a terrible patriot.
Weird tirade aside... if you grow up completely immersed in a culture that force feeds you the idea that you are not only great, but the greatest it will undoubtedly put some kind of pressure on people to uphold those ideas. It will undoubtedly cause confusion/distress if and when the greatness thing gets called into question because that is not something you are supposed to do. I'm not sure if people in this country really care if other countries think we are the greatest. I think it is more important to people who feel that way to be able to think they are the greatest just because they think and say so. I think it's probably part blow to the ego and part being forced to confront the idea that what we have all been force fed and immersed in might not be true. I mean... we were a bunch of disgruntled colonists who won our freedom from a huge world power. We made crazy huge leaps for awhile there with government, settling, infrastructure, steel, transportation, manufacturing, space exploration, available health care... for years as a baby country (we are relatively new comparatively) we rocked it. That will give you a big head. If that''s all you know as a citizen, what else are you gong to think... we have always been what we view as great so to be anything else seems somehow fundamentally wrong.
I think it would be a good experience for people to live in another country for awhile where there isn't the freedoms like there are in America. People take their freedom for granted. There's a reason why all the illegals are wanting to come here. You don't see any Americans trying to be illegal Mexicans.
_________________
Me grumpy?
I'm happiness challenged.
Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.
that's probably a major part of why the mentality of my country evolved so differently. there barely even was a war of independence. our colonial rulers were cowards who recklessly funneled resources from these lands into british hands (which in turn was instrumental for the advent of the british industrial revolution). because they didn't even care to really administrate anything, they just wanted to splurge
as soon as napoleon forced them to make up their minds between siding with the british (who they were hugely indebted to) or accepting his rule, they fled to their colony along with their nobility and moved their capital here. seven years later, this was an independent country. four years later, the same guy who declared independence here was back to the former colonial power, ruling there as king. today, the former colony is vastly more internationally relevant than the former colonial power
so if pride is ever an issue, it doesn't take much to convince ourselves that we're "better" than our former colonial powers. history itself has already been ironic enough. but, probably more significant than that, is the fact that the lower classes couldn't care less, because it never made any difference to them anyway whether the ruling powers were foreign or local, and the middle class is largely made up of the descendants of more recent immigrants from other countries (like myself). so we're more than used to the idea that "the nation" is nowhere near as important as you or your family
the former local elites (half of my ancestry) were powerless when the american economy collapsed. meanwhile, the recent immigrants (the other half of my ancestry) just kept on farming and going to work and minding their own business. they are the ones we look up to
Last edited by anagram on 10 Nov 2016, 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fact is, here anyway, we live in a world where kids are told from early on in school that not only is our country great, but the best place in the world for people to live. It's the home of the free, the land of the brave, a place where poor/miserable/opportunity lacking immigrants can come and make tons of money and live that american dream. They play it up like the only dream any sane person would have is the american one and god help you if you say anything else. Those 'MERICA!' screamer will rip your face off if you speak anything less than praises in regards to this country. Dramatic... maybe... but there is truth in the fact that people get crappy with you if you say less than great things about this country and you live here. A lot of people fly flags in their yards, slap bumper stickers on their trucks, and will even decorate their neighborhoods with pro america items. To me, this kind of patriotism boarders on nationalism, but I am a terrible patriot.
Weird tirade aside... if you grow up completely immersed in a culture that force feeds you the idea that you are not only great, but the greatest it will undoubtedly put some kind of pressure on people to uphold those ideas. It will undoubtedly cause confusion/distress if and when the greatness thing gets called into question because that is not something you are supposed to do. I'm not sure if people in this country really care if other countries think we are the greatest. I think it is more important to people who feel that way to be able to think they are the greatest just because they think and say so. I think it's probably part blow to the ego and part being forced to confront the idea that what we have all been force fed and immersed in might not be true. I mean... we were a bunch of disgruntled colonists who won our freedom from a huge world power. We made crazy huge leaps for awhile there with government, settling, infrastructure, steel, transportation, manufacturing, space exploration, available health care... for years as a baby country (we are relatively new comparatively) we rocked it. That will give you a big head. If that''s all you know as a citizen, what else are you gong to think... we have always been what we view as great so to be anything else seems somehow fundamentally wrong.
I think it would be a good experience for people to live in another country for awhile where there isn't the freedoms like there are in America. People take their freedom for granted. There's a reason why all the illegals are wanting to come here. You don't see any Americans trying to be illegal Mexicans.
Yeah, our expats in Europe, Japan and other rich, democratic countries must be hurting from the loss of all these "freedoms". /s
_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
And how is it Trump plans to make health care affordable again?
_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
So very sad. It's been so long the American people don't even know what "Great" means anymore.
Great does not mean "We have the most powerful army." This was a bunch of crp started by the military/industrial complex after WWII; remember President Dwight D. Eisenhower's warnings this was forming when he was President???
When America was "Great" the average working man was able to support himself, wife, and kids AND afford a small home. NO wife forced into the workplace to let the kids grow up like animals under stranger's supervision in order to survive.
The United States had a strong economy with many good paying jobs available. Compare this to the dog-eat-dog system in place now...we're looking pretty sad...and the government does NOTHING about it, only wishing to fill their own private coffers. We've been sold out.
But Trump, like myself, remembers that distant time and knows this is the America we want vs. the America we get after the plundering is over. Maybe Trump has the guts to get something started to reverse this trend.
i think we're getting to the core of the matter, and i think i'm starting to get it: it's zero-sum mentality. "if someone else gains anything, it immediately means you lose something". the world may or may not fear the u.s. (the world probably does fear the u.s., because, well, there's reason to), but the world will never respect it as long as it maintains that mentality and that attitude. and you're right: if other countries don't respect yours, then your country risks being bullied. but bullied by whom? exactly by those who are so afraid of being bullied
it's a widely-known fact that the united states was instrumental in the establishment and maintenance of horrible dictatorships throughout south america in the second half of the 20th century (as well as in several other places around the globe). people here don't usually care about it that much, because it's just what empire builders do, and clinging to pride doesn't help anyone. but make no mistake: the world resents and distrusts the u.s., and will only resent it more and more if it doesn't learn to just mind its own business and take care of its own problems (which clearly are plenty)
to give you an idea of what i'm talking about: when the twin towers were struck, i was in high school. immature kids as we were, we didn't care about politeness or political correctness or future implications. so half of the students cheered when they heard the news. the other half just didn't care. and no one cared to reproach those who cheered. we didn't want americans to suffer, we didn't want any wars to happen, but we were just too tired of constantly reading and watching news about the u.s. doing whatever it pleases and never stopping to actually contemplate the consequences of their attitude, simply because those consequences always happened elsewhere, with so many americans blindly following their leaders who preach their inherent righteousness
the bottom line is your country's "greatness" is bad for you. it's what gives you reason to live in fear
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