I'm glad that young earth creationism exists.

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You read that right. I'm an atheist and I'm glad that young earth creationism exists. Let me explain.

Here is a question for people who believe in evolution. If someone asked you "Why do you believe in evolution?" what would you say? Do you simply believe in evolution "just because" or can you explain it?

When we are forced to explain why we believe something, this helps us grow as human beings.

I have a similar attitude towards the flat earth movement. The earth is flat, but some people couldn't prove the roundness of the earth if they were forced to. We grow intellectually when we can explain why we believe in things.

Who's with me?

Actually "the Flat Earth Society" was founded decades ago for that reason: as a bit of a put-on, and as an exercise in contrarian thinking (to challenge folks to prove what they "know"). Not to actually promote belief in the Earth being flat.

Though there was a recent fad of U-tubers who seemed to be sincere believers in the Earth being flat. Flooding UTube with their vlogs about NASA conspiracies and so forth.

I, personally, think that everyone should read the Bible and read about the history of religion.

I don't think that you are qualified to criticize the Bible unless you have actually read it for yourself.

I'm an atheist and I still read the Bible. That makes me qualified. No regrets.

Sure. We read the Bible -as a literature- in Lit class in college. Along with the Greek myths, and Shakespeare, and so forth.

Much of western art in the last 2000 years is devoted to Bible stories.

Was briefly in Sunday school as a teen (it was a Unitarian church, but still we read the Bible) long enough to get through Exodus.

Because of that I know the reference, and because I know the reference I am still brought to tears whenever I hear the audio of Martin Luther King's last speech "I have been to the mountaintop, I have seen the Promised Land. I may not make it there with you all, but I know that we as a people will reach the Promised Land...". Am tearing up right now as I write this.

Here's why I find creationism confusing. Most creationists will say "Evolution doesn't make sense to me. Therefore, my god is the real one."

Reality Check: If we were to prove evolution impossible, this would prove the existence of a creator ... and yet you almost never see Christian creationists collaborating with Native American creationists. Why? Shouldn't they want to make creation science more inclusive?



Are you saying that humanity didn't emerge from a giant clam shell?
Can we prove that this didn't happen?

How do we know that Yahweh is the one true God? Maybe the one true god is Raven.
How do we know that the Jews are God's chosen? Maybe the real god is Raven, who prefers the Haida people.

Forget about Israel! The real holy land is British Columbia! That's where the first humans emerged from the clam shell! Prove me wrong!

Well....I guess they know enough to pick their battles.

Prove there had to be a creator first. Then worry about which creator later.

Someone on WP, forget who, said that they get mailings from Hindu creationists.

In Hindu theology the timescales are vaaaaast. Creation goes in cycles of billions of years. So you might think that Hindu fundies would be down with evolution, or at least not object to it, because of the similarly long timescales. But apparently not so.

This WP person said that Hindu fundies even point to the same "evidence" -namely the so called "human footprints among dinosauars" that Christian YECs point to. But they point for the opposite reasons. The Hindu Fundies say "here is evidence of humans living alongside dinosaurs ergo humans are vastly older than we thought. ergo the Hindu scriptures must be right". Christian fundie point to the supposed evidence of humans living alongside dinosaurs and say "dinosaurs are YOUNGER than we thought, ergo the whole of creation is younger than we thought".

This reminds me of black supremacist theology.



Can anyone prove that white people weren't created by a black mad scientist? I didn't think so! Checkmate white scientists!

Of course we can prove it.....through the fossil evidence......

Why would some black "mad scientist" want to "create" white people, anyway?

something something something check your privilege blah blah

Creationists give me the sh#ts and people should not be encouraged to question science. Average people are stupid and once they starting thinking, they develop stupid illogical beliefs like the earth is flat and/or was created in less than a week or vaccines are dangerous and other nonsense. It is not important for Joe average to be able to explain quantum physics but accepting that some people with the right education do understand it and taking their word for it really is sensible. Same with believing that science has found a way to stop people dying from polio. You don’t need to understand the science, just accept that it exists and is correct.

People should question everything. That's what moves science forward. We have relativity because Einstein questioned Newtonian gravitation. We have punctuated equilibrium because Stephen Jay Gould questioned Darwinian gradualism.

The only thing that we shouldn't question is the foundation of science. If we find new information, we should find out what it means, rather than merely discarding it. That is the foundation of science. We build a worldview around evidence. We don't selectively choose evidence that reinforces our pre-existing worldview.

We shouldn't question the foundation of science, but we should question the conclusions that scientists come to. We should examine the evidence ourselves and draw conclusions from this evidence. We'll come to appropriate conclusions as long as we see all the evidence.

Creationism is problematic because creationists will usually ignore most of the evidence, leaving many big questions unanswered. Source: I challenged the creationists on this site a while ago and I didn't get a proper response.

Science isn't a religion. It isn't an elitist cult for arrogant geniuses. When you carefully examine the world in order to find new information and then adjust your worldview to include that new information, that is science. Anyone can do it as long as they have the right equipment and self-discipline.

To be honest, I don't think that scientists necessarily have to be more intelligent than the average person, though they do need to have equipment and self-discipline.



This is starting to get Platonic ... and I mean that in a bad way because Plato was kind of an as*hole.

In my opinion, average people develop illogical beliefs when they don't think.

The real problem is this: A lot of people are bad at explaining reality. For example, many people who believe in evolution make evolution look bad because they explain it poorly.

For example, a lot of people will claim that evolution makes animals "better". In reality, animals are molded by their changing environment. The world is always changing, and so evolution has no end goal. There can never be an objectively perfect animal because an animal that is perfectly adapted to living in the Sahara Desert will die instantly if it is moved to the Arctic Ocean, and vice versa.



Why not?

I like to watch videos about quantum physics. Basically, the smallest particles in existence move in confusing ways. For example, they pop in and out of existence and seemingly teleport. This implies that the universe has undiscovered forces, but it's hard to figure out exactly what's going on because we are dealing with such small particles.

In other words, scientists still don't fully understand quantum physics, but it's not hard to tell Average Joe what scientists do know so far.

Perhaps Average Joe will assume that God must exist because not everything in quantum physics has been explained. Whatever. The scientists will continue looking for new information even if Average Joe does not.

If scientists ever do develop a unifying theory that explains all of quantum physics, Average Joe will likely accept it, provided there is evidence to support it.



Well ... if the people want more evidence, we should just give it to them.

Not everyone cares about how antibiotics work, but what if someone asks out of curiosity and doesn't get a clear answer? That's how science denial begins.

No, Joe average should not be encouraged to question science. Have you not talked to anti-Vaxer’s? They think they are terrible knowledgeable. Doesn’t matter what facts they are presented with, they think they know better than science and that vaccines cause autism and are just a way for Big Pharma to make money.

I’m all for teaching people how to think critically but when people do not think critically they end up reaching all sorts of erroneous conclusions and some of those conclusions are dangerous. Bleach enemas as a treatment for autism are a thing now. The people who believe in it are the type of idiots who don’t do science and I’m over these people saying they have a right to their own opinion because that’s a logical fallacy.

Yes I’m cranky. I’ve had a death in the family today.

Sorry to hear about your death in the family. Hope that things going okay for you.

+++++++++++

Yeah. Its one of those conundrums.

Like the paradox of free speech. Free speech includes the right to speak out in favor of totalitarian ideologies that forbid free speech like communism and Nazism. ACLU did its duty when it protected the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie.

Science is based upon questioning. But even before the Net and U Tube writers would abuse that right to question... to pedal nonsense to the nonexpert.

Back in the Fifties there was a bestseller called "Worlds in Collision" by Immanuel Villikofsky (sp?) that millions of well educated Americans (included, I'm embarrassed to say, my parents)thought was "an interesting read". Harmless and innocent, but still... well....the thesis of the book was that our Solar System did not take its present shape billions of years ago as science claims, but only took its present line up of planets in the last 3000 years ago after a violent game of cosmic billiards (planets getting shot around the place like in a game of nine ball).

And that these events are recorded in ancient myths ( the Greek Myth that Athena sprang out of the head of Zeus is a memory of Venus sprouting out of Jupiter-and then ricocheting across space and crossing the orbits of Mars and the Earth to end up in its present orbit, except that Venus/Aphrodite is different goddess than Athena - so even that part doesn't make sense- much less the physics).

Anyway- my college professors in Geology and Astronomy all sneared at Villikofsky, and in print Isaac Asimov totally demolished him.

Now the speed and traffic size of misinformation is more than ever due to the misinformation super highway. Every other thing on UTube is Flat Earthism, Creationism, or about Reptiod Aliens ordering the Rothchilde's to order the Rosicrucians to order the Bilderburgers, to order the Illumanatti to order Taylor Swift to rule us all through her music videos.

I won't go so far as to say I'm glad they exist, since they can be very harmful, but one thing is sure: they reveal the extent to which most people don't care the tiniest bit for actual science, treating it as religion. Science isn't belief; it's the study of that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

Thanks NP, I’m OK. Not sad yet, just feeling really, really bloody angry at the world. It will pass.

And Spiderpig, you are right, science is not a religion and it is absolutely about what holds true in the absence of belief but that is not the belief I am talking about. My belief, and I believe it passionately, is that science is fundamentally important to the future wellbeing of humanity and uneducated people such as creationists and other fringe dwellers seem to frequently be climate deniers and antivaxers and their beliefs are damaging. Look at what has happened to the EPA in America. It no longer does what is says on the label and that is why I believe that people should believe in science or would you find the term ‘care about’ more understandable? The more mainstream creationism and flat earth beliefs become, the less funding and security science will have to show what exists in the absence of belief. Now I’m walking away because I do not have the tolerance for stupid arguments about stupid creationist. Actually, make that people in general. People suck.

That is an interesting perspective. Science has always been about questioning, when we stop questioning things we stagnate.