Can children with Aspergers still lie / manipulate?

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I am new to these boards, but have read WrongPlanet before. Its possible that my son has Aspergers. He was evaluated and they said "severe ADHD" and said his mild autistic traits were due to him being homeschooled (He was 5.5 at the time, now 6). In any case, my husband and I really think he has Aspergers. I have done a lot of reading, but the one thing that doesn't add up is that he seems to at times be manipulative, etc. Is it still possible that he has Aspergers?

Last week he fell off his bike and got scraped up a bit. For about 20 minutes after that, he paced around the garage in a circle while flapping his hands (one more than the other.) He wouldn't let me put band-aids on him, but asked me to hold his limbs down so he could put them on himself. He couldn't stop moving his arms/legs enough to put band-aids on unless I helped him. Eventually he calmed down. After this incident, I was thinking, of course my son is on the spectrum..but then I keep coming back to the fact that he can be manipulative.

I struggle with black-and-white thinking and its hard for me not knowing if he is or not. He is "2e" and I have heard it is common for kids to not get diagnosed with ASD until 9 or 10.

Things have been hard lately. Sometimes I just can't tell if he really didn't understand what I was asking of him, or if he is just pretending he didn't understand, etc, etc. I am trying to be sensitive to the fact that he could have ASD (and does have ADHD), but its really hard not knowing and not knowing how to parent him.

I am new to these boards and hope I haven't written anything that could offend someone. I appreciate any information - thanks!

He was able to ask you to help him by doing the only logical thing you could at the time. He needed to be in control enough to get those band aids on and the movement is something he cant control as such. Its his body letting him release the anxiety. I guess he needed the band aids on before he had enough time to get all that movement out so he asked (which I think is great he could) and you helped him. That shows he has a lot of trust in you and you sound like you are aware enough to allow him the space to stim and recover from the stressful event of that accident.

I have 4 autistic kids and its been a massive learning curve as they are all different. My son especially struggles with accidents and needs a huge amount of support if he gets hurt. The main thing to realise is that you must remain extremely calm and make them follow a method to come down from the anxiety. I use breathing techniques to do that and we breathe it out together, (I get them to copy me, dont have to have eye contact, just listening to the rhythm is enough). My daughters need firm hugs to feel the squash pressure to re-regulate, but my eldest two cant be touched so its all remote and about talking/breathing it through.

While I can say I do know some aspergers kids/adults to be manipulative and lie, I dont feel this was a case of that and it is admirable that the young lad has the logic to ask such a sensible question in that situation.

My daughter had a terrible time with minor injuries. From 4-5 she would sustain a minor injury and literally think her leg might have fallen off or there might be a hole in her body. She would refuse to look directly at the injury or let me look. I would take a photograph of the injury and we would then look at the photograph before being able to look directly at it. If I was not available, she would just not look and refuse to get undressed until we could go through this procedure together.

She is now 8. Recently she had a minor injury at school and there was a small amount of blood and she passed out. After that we talked about breathing exercises and what happens when we starve the brain of oxygen and she has now had quite a few bigger injuries and managed to get through without fainting.

As Babi dwr suggests it is all about finding the right coping techniques. I find detailed knowledge of physiology and being very matter of fact helps too.

I second that I hear no manipulation, just a desperate need for your son to regain control over a situation that may be feeling like it is spinning out of control. I think manipulation is a word frequently used for children with ASC and PDA but I think it makes more sense to think of it as a need to be in control in order to better cope with huge amounts of anxiety.

Hi, I'm sorry for the confusion and thank you for your responses....The bike accident and the manipulation are not related.

So my question is just can a kid with Aspergers still at times lie/be manipulative? The bike incident was an example of a time when I thought he seemed like he must be on the spectrum, but then I doubt myself because at other times I think he can be manipulative.

Things like trying to get out of schoolwork because he says he wants to play with his baby brother, but is just trying to get out of schoolwork or wants to play with a toy by himself, etc.

Oh yes, all of mine can manage that. Ive different styles going on though as one is a serial avoidance type which in itself can be manipulative. One is a negotiator like her Dad but again in a manipulative way sometimes. I dont feel like its wrong to use the word when it is appropriate because sometimes I think people tend to be a bit too 'fair' on people with aspergers just because its a condition. Im very straight about how they are and wont take it. While one of mine cant lie, another is terrible for lying and I have a real struggle trusting what hes saying. It takes a lot of time and effort just to realise the truth when hes involved but I do have the measure of him and understand why he resorts to lying. You will have to be a detective and watch for the patterns in his behaviour to decide the causes. But yes in summary its most definitely possible from my experience.

I would say that, yes, people with Asperger's certainly can lie or be manipulative; I have Asperger's, and much as I hate to admit it, I have done so myself, including when I was a child. In fact, concealing our autistic differences in order to appear more "normal" socially, which many autistic people do, could even be seen as a form of deception (and possibly one which we are encouraged to do!)

However, I do think that there may be some important differences. For example, the motivation to lie might be different; an autistic person might lie to avoid a potentially stressful situation, as an excuse to avoid responsibilities, or to avoid a scolding, but might be less inclined to lie to achieve social status among their peers or to win a debate. Lying also depends on us having a good understanding of what others will find believable and the ability to project the result of our lie into the future, which are skills which autistic people often have difficulty with. So we might be less likely to lie not necessarily because we don't have the motivation to, but because we are unable to work out what lie to tell or because we have discovered that we are very likely to get found out (I realised quite quickly as a child that I was hopeless at it!)

^^ Yes to what Trogluddite says.

Now, in what I say next I'm not speaking of or about your child. Rather, I want to be sure you have realistic expectations if/when your son is in autism support groups or educational programs. (So, I'm speaking of hypothetical classmates and playmates.)

Autism, genetically, does track with some things, but the severity of those things can vary tremendously. A lot of us are clumsy. A lot of us have GI issues. But the degree of severity of these problems doesn't necessarily match the severity of the autism.

It's also associated with, but not necessarily genetically linked to, other conditions like anxiety, depression, etc. Some of that is nature and some is environment - it's hard to be very different in the US, for instance, without ending up pretty anxious and depressed, because we are *not* a society that welcomes differences. But that's true for gay kids, and trans kids, and kids of color too.

The really ticklish piece is that having autism is *not* protective against some of the bad stuff, like Cluster B personality disorders. NTs can be narcissistic; so can Aspies. NTs can be sociopathic; so can Aspies. NTs can also be incredibly empathetic and kind, amazingly sensitive to beauty, loving and good. So can Aspies. NTs can be fiendishly manipulative, and oh my, so can Aspies.

This is a longwinded way of saying: don't fall into the easy trap of either demonizing, or idealizing, autistic people. We have our share of saints and savants, and also of trolls and other embarrassments, at all ages and all levels of functioning. If you know that up front, you're more likely to recognize the troublemakers when your son encounters them, which is important, because he won't, not at first, not for a long time.

Everyone can.
But it is good to try to give the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks for the feedback...This is very helpful. Today I took the approach with my son as if he did have an autism diagnosis and it went better. For example, at some point during our schoolwork today he accidentally poked his eye and was having some mini-tantrum about it. Instead of trying to get him to re-focus, I just chose to let it go and give him the time he needed. I told him to go to his room (if he wanted to) and rest until it felt better. He actually did that and came back without me asking him ready to finish his work. So...my normal approach is more like, "get over it, let's back to work..." (he is homeschooled.) This time I was accepting that he has some sensory issue I can't completely understand.

Yesterday, there was a big issue because he said he was hungry, but there was 10 more minutes of work to do and then we were done, so I really wanted him to finish. I had also just given him a long break and he didn't think to eat. So we get back to the schoolwork and are almost done..In any case, tantrum city erupted short after. Is that a sensory thing? Is it so uncomfortable for him to be a touch hungry while finishing a task? Partly my fault anyway, because I let him get distracted with the snap circuits toy at the breakfast table (mistake, but he was so focused and having so much fun) and he took forever to eat his breakfast, so I thought he wouldn't want snack at the normal time and well, guess that was wrong. Raising him feels like an art....and one that I'm not always good at.

I have a simple philosophy: if parenting your child as if he has autism (using protocols from this board, etc) makes life go smoother for both of you, then parent your child as if he has autism, and it doesn't really matter if he does or does not.

As he gets older his neurology will become more obvious to you. I had many doubts when my son was first diagnosed. They disappeared long, long ago.

No we're all perfectly good individuals who would never lie and would never manipulate people to get what we want...

That's just simply not very nice...

I would suggest that he needs prompting to eat and that the tantrum came from want we call in our home 'hangryness'. My eldest (and her Dad) are really effected by it. Its sudden in the onset and they just get so angry if they cannot eat that very moment.

It used to happen to Dad when we were out, we would need to drop what we were doing and get him something to eat there and then. After he was fine. My daughter knows and tells me shes 'hangry'

From what I know its the same as me with hydration, I dont feel thirsty until I am very dehydrated and need to prompt myself to drink. Its all sensory related, look up sensory processing disorder. If you can start thinking of him with that in mind it will help you a lot.

Also, can I add that you sound very constrained by time. Id suggest if hes an aspie like me who hates that then why not relax it a little and just work for 'about 20 mins' at a time. You will still get the work done but the 'time pressure' will leave him and its more enjoyable. Your homeschooling, your free! you dont need to mimic the environment thats not set up for aspies, just make it suit him and if hes got an attention span that lasts an hour great, if its 10 mins then fine let him stop and regroup for before you go another 10 mins.

If his manipulation is transparent to you, he clearly isn't very effective at it. Either way, asperger's/autism doesn't necessarily mean you won't lie or be manipulative. We're humans and our behavior varies.