Why is Scots a Language?
If you grew up in Scotland & reared speaking English, esp English with local dialect, you can understand it.
If you grew up elsewhere in the anglosphere, it depends how many Scots you knew & on your local dialect growing up.
But it's no different in that way to other strong local accents.
I do not mean Scottish Gaelic. I mean Robert Burns language.
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It isn't mutually intelligible with most dialects of English, even if Scottish English exists in a continuum between Scots and English. As much as Scots is distinct from Scottish English it still slowly absorbs influence from SE, so it will always end up following English innovations and be unlikely to develop more of it's own that lead to it becoming less intelligible to English speakers.
There's a tendency for important tongues to steadily influence less important neighbours towards increasingly resembling them. Isolation will result in the opposite tendency.
This is a core issue in linguists; the boundaries between languages and the question of what's a dialect and what's a language aren't always clear.
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If you grew up elsewhere in the anglosphere, it depends how many Scots you knew & on your local dialect growing up.
But it's no different in that way to other strong local accents.
I do not mean Scottish Gaelic. I mean Robert Burns language.
You kind of answered your own question. Within Scotland there is continuum from pure Scots to just speaking English with a Scottish Brogue. And every shade in between. So if you're born in Scotland, and speak with a Scottish Brogue you are already halfway to Scots, so you can understand someone speaking Scots.
But, I, a Yank, couldnt understand a Scots speaker, and probably neither could a London person (either a Londener who speaks BBC English, or a Londoner who speaks Cockney). So in the wider Anglosphere Scots is not intelligible. So its a separate language.
Let's look up some references,
Starting with the Scottish government, https://www.gov.scot/policies/languages/scots/
Scots language policy and next steps
In 2010 we established a Scots language working group whose report (Scots language: Ministerial Working Group report) recommended we develop a national Scots language policy.
We published Scots Language Working Group report: Scottish Government response in 2011 and launched our Scots language policy in 2015. This will be reviewed periodically, and is available in two versions:
There appears to be debate among intellectuals and others who likewise have various and sundry personal and professional agendas,
https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/0 ... unity.html
There is no consensus among language experts about what constitutes a language versus a dialect. Spoken language is constantly changing, and different communities of language speakers coin new words, phrases, and expressions that get used within their groups. Inevitably, several versions of a language emerge, with distinct features—the accents of American English and British English, to name one. Whether these different versions are considered distinct languages is largely political. Sociolinguist Max Weinreich is credited with popularizing a quote illustrating the blurry line between the two: “a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.”
https://www.scotslanguage.com/What_is_S ... cots_%253F
Many people have heard about the Scots language but aren't sure what it is. Scots has been spoken in Scotland for several centuries and is found today throughout the Lowlands and Northern Isles. The name Scots is the national name for Scottish dialects sometimes also known as ‘Doric’, ‘Lallans’ and ‘Scotch’, or by more local names such as ‘Buchan’, ‘Dundonian’, ‘Glesca’ or ‘Shetland’. Taken altogether, Scottish dialects are known collectively as the Scots language. Scots is one of three native languages spoken in Scotland today, the other two being English and Scottish Gaelic.
...
Is Scots the same as speaking with a Scottish accent?
Most Scottish people speak with a Scottish accent. People from Scotland and people from England, for instance, can both speak English, but each speaks with a different accent, which tells the listener where we come from. Speaking Scots is not the same as speaking English with a Scottish accent. This is because speaking in Scots means using many words, sayings, turns of phrase, meanings and grammar, found only in Scots. To find out if you speak Scots you should take a moment to click on the map and listen to people speaking Scots.
Where does it come from?
The language originated with the tongue of the Angles who arrived in Scotland about AD 600, or 1,400 years ago. During the Middle Ages this language developed and grew apart from its sister tongue in England, until a distinct Scots language had evolved. At one time Scots was the national language of Scotland, spoken by Scottish kings, and was used to write the official records of the country. Scots was displaced as a national language after the political union with England, in 1707, but it has continued to be spoken and written in a number of regional varieties since that time. If you would like to learn more about the history of Scots please feel free to download and read the two PDF History Timelines below.
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I only realised how much of it's own language it was when I started watching Danish tv series. I could actually understand quite a few words like hus and hoose are the same words for house. Noo and noo are now. Are you really going to say these Danish words are just English words pronounced with an accent? I don't think so.
Maybe an actual Scottish person, rather than a phoney Scot born in England, could answer this question better than me, but I used to think that Scots words were just slang, not its own actual language.
Wait till you hear Doric, which is a Scots dialect.
You might also ask why Swiss German is a dialect but Lëtzebuergesch is a language.
This conversation brings to mind end of 1970s when we moved from Macon, Georgia, to Virginia Beach, Virginia, & the 11th grade English teacher had just moved there from New York City.
I spoke English.
She spoke English.
But English and English were two different languages.
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It's not just a different accent, the syntax is different too. I find myself typing something out here and then rewriting it because I wonder if Americans will understand what I just wrote. Doesn't help that I'm from the North of England either, so that's a whole other kettle of fish.
Can people understand what I write ok? Or does it take some deciphering.
As has been said, a lot of it has to do with mutual intelligibility along a dialect continuum. Speakers of Scottish English are more likely to understand Scots speakers--if only by exposure--than more distant English speakers like me. Another example would be speakers of Austrian German being unable to understand speakers of Lower German (Plattdeutsch) in faraway northern Germany, while a speaker of 'standard' German living near Plattdeutsch speakers would be much more able to understand them.
Scots is a victim of the old adage: "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy".
All too often we limit the label of language to those tongues which have clear national status (French, German, English), and label as mere dialects those tongues which do not--even if they clearly are their own languages (Occitan, Plattdeutsch, African American Vernacular English).
It doesn't help that this question is almost always muddled by nationalist politics. Russia has historically treated Ukrainian, for example, as a mere dialect of Russian to help justify Russian rule over Ukraine. Racism also goes hand in hand with these views. To many in England, Scots is just a broken English 'variety' spoken by uneducated, uncouth Celts.
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Can people understand what I write ok? Or does it take some deciphering.
I don't need to do any deciphering to figure out what you're saying, and I'm a very standard American English speaker. The tiniest thing is that we don't say "whole other kettle of fish" to refer to something that is its own separate issue. Our idiom is usually that something is a "whole other can of worms" (which might have a more negative connotation than kettle of fish?). But it's easy to figure out what you mean by context even to an American.
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- Brian Wilson
Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.
- Thucydides
Can people understand what I write ok? Or does it take some deciphering.
I've been so long on model railway forums having large numbers of people from UK, NZ, Australia, that as for written English from all those places it has become normal to me.
And I follow a number of narrowboaters on YouTube, so that much spoken English from the UK is familiar to me.
As for other Americans ... they will have to answer for themselves.
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I think there's a difference between spoken language and written language. Written English worldwide has been more or less standard since Caxton introduced the printing press to England in the 1400s and the London standard became the default standard.
Listening to Doric and Shetland dialects, it sounds like a really thick accent, but still English. Seeing it written out, it looks like pre-Caxton English before spelling was standardized (or standardised...there are indeed exceptions even nowadays).
Now, Gaelic is a completely different language entirely. It's certainly possible that the Scottish accent is the way Gaelic speakers adopted English. Even if the original language was forgotten by subsequent generations, the spoken intonation remains. Still, Scots is certainly more English than Gaelic. I'd call it a dialect of English, not a separate language.
Perhaps, however, it's akin to patois languages (hybrid languages) found mainly in island environments, like the Caribbean or off the coast of Georgia.
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I think there's a difference between spoken language and written language. Written English worldwide has been more or less standard since Caxton introduced the printing press to England in the 1400s and the London standard became the default standard.
Listening to Doric and Shetland dialects, it sounds like a really thick accent, but still English. Seeing it written out, it looks like pre-Caxton English before spelling was standardized (or standardised...there are indeed exceptions even nowadays).
Now, Gaelic is a completely different language entirely. It's certainly possible that the Scottish accent is the way Gaelic speakers adopted English. Even if the original language was forgotten by subsequent generations, the spoken intonation remains. Still, Scots is certainly more English than Gaelic. I'd call it a dialect of English, not a separate language.
Perhaps, however, it's akin to patois languages (hybrid languages) found mainly in island environments, like the Caribbean or off the coast of Georgia.
Scots has been a distinct language for hundreds of years, ever since the Scottish lowlands were dominated by Old English speakers. As long as Scotland and England were two distinct nations with limited contact the Scots language developed away from English. Once that ceased to be the case Scots began to absorb more influence from (and thus came to again more closely resemble) English.
Gaelic isn't even relevant to the topic. It's unrelated and historically was the language of the highlands, not of the whole of Scotland.
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Gaelic isn't even relevant to the topic. It's unrelated and historically was the language of the highlands, not of the whole of Scotland.
Scots obviously developed AFTER Old English. Old English is completely unrecognizable to modern English speakers. Old English is essentially a completely different language entirely. Modern Scots most certainly appears to be an off shoot of Middle English, or even early-modern English.
Middle English was already in use when England first invaded Scotland, and the source of Scots is clearly an earlier form of the English language. You're free to look up videos of people speaking Scots or read written Scots if you don't believe me.
The dialects of Northern England that led to early variants of Scots were indeed Middle English (NOT Old English). Prior to the influence of the English language, it appears Gaelic and Britonic languages were native to Scotland. Modern Scots may be influenced in part by these languages and Scandinavian languages, but it's clearly an offshoot of Middle English. It certainly didn't evolve by itself apart from English.
And how is Gaelic completely irrelevant to the topic? Or Brittonic. These languages probably did affect the pronunciations of what became Modern Scots...but Modern Scots itself is clearly an English offshoot, the core of the language not native to Scotland.
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Gaelic isn't even relevant to the topic. It's unrelated and historically was the language of the highlands, not of the whole of Scotland.
Scots obviously developed AFTER Old English. Old English is completely unrecognizable to modern English speakers. Old English is essentially a completely different language entirely. Modern Scots most certainly appears to be an off shoot of Middle English, or even early-modern English.
Middle English was already in use when England first invaded Scotland, and the source of Scots is clearly an earlier form of the English language. You're free to look up videos of people speaking Scots or read written Scots if you don't believe me.
The dialects of Northern England that led to early variants of Scots were indeed Middle English (NOT Old English). Prior to the influence of the English language, it appears Gaelic and Britonic languages were native to Scotland. Modern Scots may be influenced in part by these languages and Scandinavian languages, but it's clearly an offshoot of Middle English. It certainly didn't evolve by itself apart from English.
And how is Gaelic completely irrelevant to the topic? Or Brittonic. These languages probably did affect the pronunciations of what became Modern Scots...but Modern Scots itself is clearly an English offshoot, the core of the language not native to Scotland.
I don't believe anyone's made the case that Scots didn't split off from English. only that it's sufficiently branched off to be a distinct language and not just a dialect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... s_language
That supports the idea that English has been present in Scotland since before Middle English emerged (even if Scots clearly isn't rooted in Old English).
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