How do most transwomen feel about camp?

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For many decades, a style of humor known as "camp" has been strongly associated with gay male culture.

Camp often features men dressing up in traditional women's clothes and/or acting "effeminate." One well-known example from popular culture, way back in 1969, was The Lumberjack Song by Monty Python. Another well-known example is The Rocky Horror Picture Show, made in 1975.

According to the article How Camp and Gallows Humor Keep Us Alive and Resilient by John-Manuel Andriote, Psychology Today, July 12, 2019:

Back in University, I attended a drag show. I've never had much of an interest in drag, I was simply there because I was hoping to meet others in the community. Still, it was interesting to see what the fuss was all about. I must admit I didn't really get it, the crowd seemed to go wild with encouragement for the drag queen at the most unexpected times. However, I wasn't feeling the hype, but I didn't want to seem mean so I simply copied the rest of the audience.

I have a friend who is a trans woman. One day I mentioned the drag show when we were talking about LGBT events. She was telling me about wanting to go to a meet up in the city aimed at LGBT students (unrelated to drag and not at all camp) but she decided against it in the end. Anyway, when I mentioned the drag show, my friend said it wasn't really her thing and that she didn't like drag. I didn't get the impression she found it offensive, simply that she wasn't a fan.

Generally, I've heard more cis women complain about drag being offensive than trans women. Personally I'm not offended by it (I'm a cis woman), I just don't find it all that entertaining. I met a handful of trans guys at the drag show. They were more invested in the show than I was, except the guy who went home because he was tired.

Although most conversations around drag focus on cis men, sometimes cis women and trans women dress up as a drag queen. The aim of being a drag queen is usually not just to dress up as a woman, but to do so in a very exaggerated way that mocks the very expectations of femininity. It's a controversial practice.

Drag kings also exist. People don't talk about them as often, but they have a history in lesbian culture. I wouldn't consider drag kings to be camp, but some can be rather flamboyant. Personally I haven't heard anyone complain about drag kings, but I suspect this is because they are often overlooked.

I'd consider Eurovision and various showtunes to be camp. Unlike drag, I enjoy both of those things.

I'm a cis woman, but I have some experience with drag culture. I had a longterm relationship with a gay man who wore women's clothing nearly every day. He didn't identify as a trans woman, but we went to a lot of drag shops for clothing, shoes, cosmetics, wigs, and even lessons (voice, walking, etc.) He dressed in full drag most of the time at home, or under his men's clothes when at work. We went to some gay bars, drag clubs and drag shows. At the time I was young and a bit confused with what was going on. I was in full support of LGBTQ+ culture as I still am, but the camp behaviour / shows did seem rather exploitative to me at the time - often so exaggerated that they appeared to mock women in humiliating ways, or else exalt women to superhuman status. I wasn't offended by camp but I didn't find it funny, either. Then again I've never been into visual comedy of any genre. I thought that if I spoke up and expressed any displeasure, my partner would see me as being transphobic, which I certainly was not. I'm autistic and don't like crowds or noisy events, so I rationalised that I was uncomfortable for those reasons instead of acknowledging that the theatrics were somewhat demeaning, and over the top.

My next relationship was with a man who slowly came out to me as being gay, and a trans woman. He prefers male pronouns but identifies female. He's never been to drag shops / shows but he does buy women's apparel from mainstream women's clothing stores / departments. He wears a conservative amount of makeup occasionally, and paints his nails almost every day. His representation of women is less exaggerated and seems more genuine -- much less over-the-top, and less like a caricature. I've never known him to participate in camp.

For a clarification on how this topic came up for me: Recently, in one of my online chat support groups, someone posted a link to the 1969 Lumberjack Song by Monty Python. My immediate thought, upon viewing it, was that it seemed to me to be ridiculing transwomen, or at least crossdressers. The main joke seemed to be the very possibility that a man might want to have a traditionally masculine job such as being a lumberjack, yet at the same time enjoy dressing up in traditionally feminine clothing.

Of course, I shouldn't be speaking for transwomen or crossdressers. The real question is whether most transwomen themselves find it offensive.

I'm also wondering how transwomen feel about the Rocky Horror Picture Show, with its "sweet transvestite from transsexual Transylvania." Back in 1975, this was seen, by almost everyone in the gay community, as just all-in-good-fun playful defiance of gender norms.

However, looking back on it now, it seems to me that one of the main sources of humor was the mere existence of what were then called "transvestites" and "transsexuals." These days, I would expect transwomen to want to be portrayed as full-fledged multi-dimensional human beings, not as freaks whose very existence is a joke or a source of wonderment.

Comedy is all about stretching boundaries. And all about using stereotypes to mock stereotypes.

Most people don’t mind laughing at themselves.

I’m Jewish….and I don’t mind Jewish jokes. I’m autistic….and I don’t mind autistic jokes.

I mentioned this thread yesterday to someone I know. He used to do drag back before his body started to deteriorate. He wants to know what transwomen have to say about this too.

I don't have much to contribute, I'm not a transwoman. And my take on camp is going to be heavily influenced by my age. In my reality, things like camp and the word 'queer' are about empowerment/political statements. I'm too old to find camp offensive.

I'm mostly wanting to post here in hopes it will help me remember that this thread exists and check in on it now and then to read any new replies. So here I am.

Did some Googling. I found a bunch of articles from 2015-2017, about a remake of The Rocky Horror Picture Show starring transgender actress Laverne Cox as Dr. Frank N Furter.

The authors of these and some other articles expressed mixed feelings about The Rocky Horror Picture Show. On the one hand, it promotes harmful stereotypes. On the other hand, when it was originally created back in the 1970's, it was very subversive of gender norms and played a key role in the self-discovery of many LGBTQ+ people, both then and during the next few decades.

Also there was some concern about casting Laverne Cox as Dr. Frank N Furter, given that the latter character isn't really a transwoman, but, rather, a fetishistic cross-dresser. For example, according to Tom Hawking in Why Casting Laverne Cox in the ‘Rocky Horror Picture Show’ Reboot Isn’t a Slam Dunk Idea by Tom Hawking, FlavorWire, Oct. 23, 2015:

Rocky Horror was very popular with many teenage demographics during the 70s.

Some kids saw it 100s of times. Including many “straight” kids.

Did some Googling around to see how transwomen feel about the Lumberjack song. Some hate it, some like it (at least in the historical context of the time when it was written), others have mixed feelings.

The positive aspect is the lumberjack's repeated refrain of "... and I'm okay," despite the negative reactions of other characters in the skit. As shannon-kind said here:

Here's a documentary about Rocky Horror.

Here's a video of the "Sweet Transvestite" song from Rocky Horror. CW: miscellaneous stuff likely to be considered offensive by today's standards.

And here's another documentary about Rocky Horror, by a fan.

I'm not dictating anything......

If somebody takes something seriously, I respect it.

I've been through a lot in my life. I've had to learn to laugh at myself. I didn't feel that being a "straight, cis, white male" gave me an instant advantage. I was scorned for being myself, regardless of what alleged "privilege" I was accorded by virtue of my birth.

Saying this, I have come to learn that I am fortunate in many ways. And I've come to learn that many people aren't as lucky as I am.

We don't have that word here in Canada, I only know it because of British immigrants explaining it. The closest thing would be drag queens/drag culture - and from my observations of local trans women and their involvement in the drag scene I'd say it's well embraced and welcomed. Drag gives shy/not out trans women a platform to dress as women, do their makeup, and be up on stage entertaining others with their dance/comedy routines - an opportunity to get comfortable living as a women even if it's as a cartoon charicature of one. I know a few trans drag queens that then made the leap to being out and then transitioning. Same for newly realized trans women wanting to get into drag to explore it. And I've never ever heard a trans woman talk down about cis males doing drag - quite the opposite, since they tend not to subscribe to societal gender norms and thus have no issues with others playing in the space.

But I'm not trans and these are merely my cis gay male thoughts about what I've observed.

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