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NibiruMul
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12 Dec 2023, 12:49 pm

I was having a discussion with one of my staff at program today, and he was talking about how the government refuses to help homeless veterans. I hate to admit this, but sometimes I have trouble respecting veterans. It's especially true with Iraq War veterans (especially white ones from red states) because many of them are Trump supporters. You see it a lot with prominent ones like Dan Crenshaw. Robert O'Neill, and Chris Kyle - all of whom have made racist, homophobic, and anti-Muslim comments. (Chris Kyle constantly referred to Arabs as "savages" even if they were civilians.) They often get the "war hero" treatment. I always thought the Iraq War was a mistake, especially because it only made things worse by giving room for ISIS to take over. I also come from New York, and a lot of white Southern veterans have talked trash about New York and stereotyped it as full of liberals. I do realize isn't new, since I always heard stories about WWII veterans who continued to refer to Japanese people as "Japs" throughout their lives. I just find it hard to respect a veteran who thinks gay men don't belong in the military or refers to Arabs as "savages" and Hispanics as "illegals".

How could I learn to respect Iraq War veterans?



MatchboxVagabond
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12 Dec 2023, 1:05 pm

NibiruMul wrote:
I was having a discussion with one of my staff at program today, and he was talking about how the government refuses to help homeless veterans. I hate to admit this, but sometimes I have trouble respecting veterans. It's especially true with Iraq War veterans (especially white ones from red states) because many of them are Trump supporters. You see it a lot with prominent ones like Dan Crenshaw. Robert O'Neill, and Chris Kyle - all of whom have made racist, homophobic, and anti-Muslim comments. (Chris Kyle constantly referred to Arabs as "savages" even if they were civilians.) They often get the "war hero" treatment. I always thought the Iraq War was a mistake, especially because it only made things worse by giving room for ISIS to take over. I also come from New York, and a lot of white Southern veterans have talked trash about New York and stereotyped it as full of liberals. I do realize isn't new, since I always heard stories about WWII veterans who continued to refer to Japanese people as "Japs" throughout their lives. I just find it hard to respect a veteran who thinks gay men don't belong in the military or refers to Arabs as "savages" and Hispanics as "illegals".

How could I learn to respect Iraq War veterans?

You don't, you respect the person or not. All the soldier worship is BS and a huge chunk of them don't even see actual combat, so perhaps folks can stop pretending like every veteran has PTSD or saw stuff when the majority are involved in jobs that are far from the front lines.



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12 Dec 2023, 1:20 pm

Ah yes, let's continue to fight hate and ignorance with even more hate and ignorance. It's the American Way! :roll:

That said however, I agree that the War in Iraq was stupid and I cringe at all the "military worship" in the south too. Mostly because nobody will admit that nobody really gives a s**t about our military here in the states.

What else can you say about a country with peace-loving pothead hippies throwing feces and spitting on young men who were drafted into the Vietnam War while Jane Fonda was partying on the other side of the battlefield? All while they were being abandoned by the very government and country they thought they were protecting?


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12 Dec 2023, 1:33 pm

Why would you place people who fought a war of aggression up on a pedestal? They did the job they agreed to, just like most other people who've been employed. They're not heroes. They don't deserve negative judgments, but they don't deserve to be celebrated above paramedics or firefighters or other actual heroes.

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12 Dec 2023, 1:40 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Why would you place people who fought a war of aggression up on a pedestal? They did the job they agreed to, just like most other people who've been employed. They're not heroes. They don't deserve negative judgments, but they don't deserve to be celebrated above paramedics or firefighters or other actual heroes.

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I actually agree, what they deserve is compassion and understanding. At least the ones with actual PTSD, including the ones living here in the Deep South.


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funeralxempire
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12 Dec 2023, 1:44 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I actually agree, what they deserve is compassion and understanding. At least the ones with actual PTSD, including the ones living here in the Deep South.


Definitely. Antagonizing them doesn't benefit anyone or any cause. Also, the state that sent them owes them support for whatever their service inflicted. Veteran care ought to be the highest defence spending priority. If it costs too much, maybe consider producing fewer of them.


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12 Dec 2023, 5:23 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I actually agree, what they deserve is compassion and understanding. At least the ones with actual PTSD, including the ones living here in the Deep South.


Definitely. Antagonizing them doesn't benefit anyone or any cause. Also, the state that sent them owes them support for whatever their service inflicted. Veteran care ought to be the highest defence spending priority. If it costs too much, maybe consider producing fewer of them.
Well said. I support taking care of our vets after they get home & preventing them from going to war in the first place aLOT more than sending them off to fight. I do not support treating vets or anyone like hereos if they act like huge jerks about it who believe they are better than the people they were supposed to protect.


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roronoa79
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12 Dec 2023, 5:28 pm

I also struggle to respect modern military veterans. Nobody forced you to join up--you volunteered. You knew what you were getting yourself into (or maybe you just didn't put that much thought into it). You convinced yourself that America's 21st century wars were just and necessary. You bought into what the politicians were selling. You paid the price. And the government cast you aside when you lost your usefulness, because the warhawks who sent you abroad to spill blood don't want the government to help you, because something something bootstraps something something balanced budget something something small government. The main things that keep me from voicing this in public is our unhealthy collective hero worship of the troops, and the fact that, despite all the above, I feel sorry for them (well, the ones who actually are disabled or scarred or otherwise too damaged to function).

Born in the USA, by Bruce Springsteen wrote:
Come back home to the refinery,
Hiring man says, “Son, if it was up to me...”
Went down to see my V.A. man,
He said, “Son, don't you understand...”


For all the toxic posturing in this country about supporting our troops, we collectively are willing to throw them under the bus once they come home too physically and mentally scarred to support themselves. They should not starve (nor should anyone else (Oh, what a commie I am!)). They should not go without shelter (nor should anyone else). They should not have to fight tooth and nail just to hold down a job (nor should anyone else). Should the war criminals among them face justice? You bet your ass they should. But if they aren't war criminals, then turning up your nose at them doesn't fix anything. I don't respect them or their futile sacrifices, but they don't deserve to be condemned to homelessness and misery.


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NibiruMul
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12 Dec 2023, 5:51 pm

The examples I listed definitely don't have PTSD. Dan Crenshaw always seems to be smiling, and he practically gloats about his military service.

One of my great-granduncles fought in WWII and was taken prisoner by the Germans, who especially hated that he was an ethnic German fighting for America (never mind that he was American-born). From what my mom and dad told me, he clearly developed PTSD from his experience. He only lived into his forties, and his wife (who outlived him by nearly half a century) never remarried, so she was left to raise the kids. Although I never met him, he is someone whom I definitely feel sorry for. I don't feel sorry for Dan Crenshaw or Chris Kyle at all.

I understand why we need the US military, and I don't have a problem with people enlisting (it could actually be a good experience for someone who wants to serve the country), but veterans are just people like everyone else. They're not larger-than-life figures. I do respect veterans who are good people, but I do agree that you don't have to respect veterans who are jerks.



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12 Dec 2023, 6:28 pm

I don't feel sorry for Chris Kyle in the slightest, the guy was proud of being a savage and a killer. I feel worse for the guy who blew Kyle's brains out, he eliminated a monster and the most I can do to express gratitude is send him a crate of ramen.


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12 Dec 2023, 7:25 pm

Some people join the military due to reasons like poverty, getting funding for college, & getting experience that can help them find employment & various life things. There are some Aspies who join the military because they need structure & routine & they're struggling with life after becoming an adult. They may not be able to live with family anymore & are majorly struggling to find jobs.


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Last edited by nick007 on 12 Dec 2023, 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nick007
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12 Dec 2023, 7:49 pm

NibiruMul wrote:
I understand why we need the US military, and I don't have a problem with people enlisting (it could actually be a good experience for someone who wants to serve the country), but veterans are just people like everyone else. They're not larger-than-life figures. I do respect veterans who are good people, but I do agree that you don't have to respect veterans who are jerks.
A few members of my extended family were in the military. Both my grandpas joined during Word War 2; one in the army, the other was an engineer in the Air-Force. Also the husband of one of my cousins was in the Navy & became a cop after & does CSI stuff. They did not have the hero mentality & were pretty decent respectable people. I say were because both my grandpas are dead now; army one died when I was in 4th grade due to lots of heart problems & the one in the Air-Force died like 8 years ago at about the age of 97 after getting put in a nursing home due to Alzheimer's. My grandpas joined partly because of the job market in the US was bad at the time. The one in the Air-Force was a jack of all trades type. He didn't do much fighting & the experience was good for him after he left, he's had different types jobs. He was a real salt of the earth type who would readily help anyone in a jam.


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roronoa79
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13 Dec 2023, 3:16 pm

NibiruMul wrote:
The examples I listed definitely don't have PTSD. Dan Crenshaw always seems to be smiling, and he practically gloats about his military service.

Yeah, to be clear, I was talking about modern vets in general. Sorry if it seemed like I was twisting your words or misunderstanding or w/e :(


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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.

- Thucydides


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13 Dec 2023, 3:36 pm

Americans overdo the veterans and patriotism stuff.

While veterans do deserve support and incentives after service, the whole saluting veterans and thanking them for their service in public is all a bit too much.



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13 Dec 2023, 3:41 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Americans overdo the veterans and patriotism stuff.

While veterans do deserve support and incentives after service, the whole saluting veterans and thanking them for their service in public is all a bit too much.


Actually Americans don't really do anything except pay them lip service. My Mom used to work at the VA.

Many homeless people are veterans and don't get the help they actually need because when it comes down to it nobody in our society truly gives a damn about them.

I think that is what makes American patriotism so cringe. It's not real love for their country at all.


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14 Dec 2023, 9:47 am

A lot of what the OP is observing is leftover guilt for the way we treated Vietnam veterans when came home which ranged from ignoring them to open hostility to stereotyping them as psychos. As veterans who fought in the first war the U.S. lost they were not welcome in veteran organizations.


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