Does evolution violate the second law of thermodynamics?

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TheNet
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20 May 2024, 3:09 pm

I have heard some people say that it does and therefore it must not have occurred. They also say that the Big Bang violates the second law of thermodynamics and Newton's laws of motion.



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20 May 2024, 3:29 pm

It sounds like the sorts of claims that 'creation scientists' and their ilk like to peddle, and those claims are often based on intentional misrepresentation or flawed understandings of what they're seeking to discredit.

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Some have contended that the second law of thermodynamics disproves evolution because the law stipulates that entropy always increases, whereas evolution into complex beings constitutes a decrease in entropy. However, evolutionists explain that the second law applies only to systems with no external energy sources. Since Earth receives energy from the Sun, the law does not seem to contradict the theory of evolution.

https://www.britannica.com/question/Doe ... -evolution


https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/ques ... ang-theory

'Creation scientists' largely operate by trying to turn small criticisms (that may or may not be the result of misunderstandings or deliberate misinterpretation) into reasons to dismiss our entire understanding of the origins of the universe and of life and embrace something more aligned with biblical literalism instead.


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20 May 2024, 3:31 pm

I don't think so, because energy is required for it to happen. Growing, reproducing, growing again--it takes a lot of energy. It's like how organizing your house doesn't violate the second law because you're using energy to do so.
But even if it worked, the problem with that argument is it could just as easily disprove the second law of thermodynamics as it could evolution. But people use it against evolution because that's more controversial among non-scientists who don't know what they're talking about. Generally, if two well-proven scientific theories seem to contradict each other, neither one is wrong; we just haven't yet figured out how they fit together.


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TheNet
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20 May 2024, 3:34 pm

utterly absurd wrote:
I don't think so, because energy is required for it to happen. Growing, reproducing, growing again--it takes a lot of energy. It's like how organizing your house doesn't violate the second law because you're using energy to do so.
But even if it worked, the problem with that argument is it could just as easily disprove the second law of thermodynamics as it could evolution. But people use it against evolution because that's more controversial among non-scientists who don't know what they're talking about. Generally, if two well-proven scientific theories seem to contradict each other, neither one is wrong; we just haven't yet figured out how they fit together.


Like general relativity and quantum mechanics. Trying to fit them together has long been a challenge.



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20 May 2024, 3:37 pm

TheNet wrote:
utterly absurd wrote:
I don't think so, because energy is required for it to happen. Growing, reproducing, growing again--it takes a lot of energy. It's like how organizing your house doesn't violate the second law because you're using energy to do so.
But even if it worked, the problem with that argument is it could just as easily disprove the second law of thermodynamics as it could evolution. But people use it against evolution because that's more controversial among non-scientists who don't know what they're talking about. Generally, if two well-proven scientific theories seem to contradict each other, neither one is wrong; we just haven't yet figured out how they fit together.


Like general relativity and quantum mechanics. Trying to fit them together has long been a challenge.

Exactly.


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20 May 2024, 5:25 pm

TheNet wrote:
Does evolution violate the second law of thermodynamics?  I have heard some people say that it does and therefore it must not have occurred.
Those people understand neither evolution nor thermodynamics.  This is common among religious fundamentalists.
TheNet wrote:
They also say that the Big Bang violates the second law of thermodynamics and Newton's laws of motion.
The only thing the "Big Bang" (a.k.a., the "Quantum Coalescence") violated was the Void.  To paraphrase Douglas Adams:

"In the beginning, there was nothing.  Then the "Big Bang" occurred.  There was still nothing, but you could see it all much better."


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20 May 2024, 5:33 pm

TheNet wrote:
. . . general relativity and quantum mechanics. Trying to fit them together has long been a challenge.
Being a challenge does not negate the effort.


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20 May 2024, 6:04 pm

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is...that things go from order to disorder. Disorder (aka entropy) increases.

Living things on Earth, whether they evolve or not, SEEM to violate this law because seeds grow into plants and grow, and feed animals, and animals grow. And and the cells and tissues of living things are highly organized so...living thing decrease entropy. Right?

But this bucking of the trend toward entropy by earth's biosphere is at the expense of the must vaster increase in entropy by the Sun burning its nuclear fuel. The sun lights and heats the whole solar system because of the increase of disorder/entropy at its core via nuclear fusion. And living things on earth capture a minute amount of the energy so created to swim upstream a little and get more organized as they grow. And if over millions of years living things evolve it still doesnt violate the said law because its still power by the Sun's vast and steady increase in entropy.



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20 May 2024, 9:34 pm

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is a physical law based solely on universal empirical observations concerning heat and energy inter-conversions.  A simple statement of the law is that heat always flows spontaneously from hotter to colder regions of matter (or 'downhill' in terms of the temperature gradient).  Another statement is: "Not all heat can be converted into work in a cyclic process."

This law explicitly relates to HEAT, not evolution.  Of course, those who do not understand science might enjoy misapplying this principle to everything from evolution to male-pattern hair loss.

:roll:


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21 May 2024, 1:44 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
But this bucking of the trend toward entropy by earth's biosphere is at the expense of the must vaster increase in entropy by the Sun burning its nuclear fuel. The sun lights and heats the whole solar system because of the increase of disorder/entropy at its core via nuclear fusion. And living things on earth capture a minute amount of the energy so created to swim upstream a little and get more organized as they grow. And if over millions of years living things evolve it still doesnt violate the said law because its still power by the Sun's vast and steady increase in entropy.

Yup. The second law of thermodynamics applies only to closed systems, which the Earth is not.