How It All May Have Started . . .

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Fnord
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14 Aug 2024, 7:28 pm

So I'm reading this book, "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman", a biography on Dr. Richard P. Feynman (1918-1988), one of the physicists who worked on the Manhattan Project, and I get to this part where he's learning how to pick up women . . .

Quote:

So it was easy; there was nothing to it. That night after the bar closed I went again over to the master and Gloria's motel. They were laughing and smiling, happy with how it worked out. "All right," I said, "I'm absolutely convinced that you two know exactly what you're talking about. Now, what about the lessons?"

"OK," he says. "The whole principle is this: The guy wants to be a gentleman. He doesn't want to be thought of as impolite, crude, or especially a cheapskate. As long as the girl knows the guy's motives so well, it's easy to steer him in the direction she wants him to go.

"Therefore," he continued, "under no circumstances be a gentleman! You must disrespect the girls. Furthermore, the very first rule is, don't buy a girl anything -- not even a package of cigarettes -- until you've asked her if she'll sleep with you, and you're convinced that she will, and that she's not lying."

"Uh . . . you mean . . . you don't . . . uh . . . you just ask them?"

"OK," he says, "I know this is your first lesson, and it may be hard for you to be so blunt. So you might buy her one thing -- just one little something -- before you ask. But on the other hand, it will only make it more difficult."

• • •

They were a very interesting, friendly couple, and we had many interesting conversations. I recalled how we had met, and I asked them why Tamara was always introducing the new girls to me.

Gloria replied, "When Tamara was about to introduce me to you, she said, 'Now I'm going to introduce you to the real spender around here!'"

Apparently, this conversation occurred in the late 1940s, soon after the end of WWII -- more than 75 years ago. The "Master" (master of ceremonies at the local nightclub), his wife (Gloria), and a Hostess (Tamara) would steer attractive woman toward Nice Guys™ so that the men would be enticed into buying drinks for the women -- which would be easy income for the club.

These three had been in the nightclub business long enough to observe that while the Nice Guys™ would spend the money, the Bad Boys™ would "get all the girls".

Thus was born the PUA phenomenon.

Of course, this phenomenon may have actually begun when the first shaman observed the first Nice Cavemen spending all his furs and beads to keep the Cave Women happy, while the Bad Cavemen got all the Cave Women to go home with him. Who knows?

It also seems fair to point out that one of the smartest men in his time -- a 30-ish man, a man who worked with the likes of Neils Bohr, Albert Einstein, and Hans Bethe, and a man who had already been married once -- would need instruction on how to pick up women.

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Last edited by Fnord on 14 Aug 2024, 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TwilightPrincess
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14 Aug 2024, 7:35 pm

"Therefore," he continued, "under no circumstances be a gentleman! You must disrespect the girls. Furthermore, the very first rule is, don't buy a girl anything -- not even a package of cigarettes -- until you've asked her if she'll sleep with you, and you're convinced that she will, and that she's not lying."

What a creep!

Fnord
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14 Aug 2024, 7:42 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

His wife and "Tamara" seemed to agree, so why are they not creeps as well?

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TwilightPrincess
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14 Aug 2024, 7:45 pm

I didn’t say they weren’t creeps. I was just responding to the specific part of the quote that seemed especially problematic to me which is why I quoted it.

Fnord
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14 Aug 2024, 7:55 pm

A page or two later . . .

Quote:

When I was back at Cornell in the fall, I was dancing with the sister of a grad student, who was visiting from Virginia. She was very nice, and suddenly I got this idea: "Let's go to a bar and have a drink," I said.

On the way to the bar I was working up nerve to try the master's lesson on an ordinary girl. After all, you don't feel so bad disrespecting a bar girl who's trying to get you to buy her drinks -- but a nice, ordinary, Southern girl?

We went into the bar, and before I sat down, I said, "Listen, before I buy you a drink, I want to know one thing: Will you sleep with me tonight?"

"Yes."

So it worked even with an ordinary girl! But no matter how effective the lesson was, I never really used it after that. I didn't enjoy doing it that way. But it was interesting to know that things worked much differently from how I was brought up.

My take-aways: (1) The PUA method worked for Dr. Feyman once, maybe twice; and (2) Dr. Feyman did not enjoy it.

Yeah . . . I imagine some creeps and losers are, even now, googling "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman" in a vain attempt to up their games. But, so what? Any reasonably intelligent woman should be able to see through such trickery and not let herself be taken.

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TwilightPrincess
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14 Aug 2024, 7:59 pm

Fnord wrote:

Any reasonably intelligent woman should be able to see through such trickery and not let herself be taken.

Some people aren’t reasonably intelligent and others are intelligent but naïve or otherwise vulnerable. I think that’s where the real problem lies. It doesn’t seem like manipulative jerks would care if their target is vulnerable or not.

Fnord
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14 Aug 2024, 8:07 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Any reasonably intelligent woman should be able to see through such trickery and not let herself be taken.

Some people aren’t reasonably intelligent and others are intelligent but naïve or otherwise vulnerable. I think that’s where the real problem lies. It doesn’t seem like manipulators would care if their target is vulnerable or not.

Sleep with pigs, wake with pigs.

Mom used to lecture my sisters on all the "Evils of Men", but in a way that did not paint all men with the same broad brush. Only one of my sisters married a creep, but divorced him when he showed his true colors. The others have been in stable marriages for 40+ years each.

Parents, it seems, have the obligation (or should have) to teach their children to respect themselves and not be fooled by others.

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TwilightPrincess
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14 Aug 2024, 8:15 pm

Fnord wrote:

People should strive not to be as*holes.

It’s a complex issue/topic that can easily segue into victim-blaming. Parental instruction is not always going to cut it, perhaps especially for those who are vulnerable for some reason. Not everyone has decent parents, either.

I’m thinking more about PUA’s methods in general, not just the quoted material, although if someone treated me like that I wouldn’t be cool with it.

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14 Aug 2024, 9:26 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

People should strive not to be as*holes.

You're right. People should be compassionate, caring, loving, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent -- the ideal Scouts.

But people are born to be selfish; also greedy, fearful, doubtful, lustful, idolatrous, jealous, and prone to deceit -- normal people, every one. We have to be taught to be Good Scouts, and if we are not taught it early enough, we grow up to be perfectly normal human beings, and you know what real bastards they can be.

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TwilightPrincess
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14 Aug 2024, 9:36 pm

Fnord wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

People should strive not to be as*holes.

You're right. People should be compassionate, caring, loving, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent -- the ideal Scouts.

I’m not into Scouts. There’s too much of an emphasis on obedience, faith, and reverence for my heathen, free-thinking ass. I’d agree that most of those traits are positive. I was temporarily a Cub Scout Leader. My kid wanted to join, and I figured that with the Boy Scouts’ reputation he shouldn’t be out of my line of sight for even a second. Thankfully, he quickly lost interest. All that patriotism and God stuff made me nauseous.

Quote:

But people are born to be selfish; also greedy, fearful, doubtful, lustful, idolatrous, jealous, and prone to deceit -- normal people, every one. We have to be taught to be Good Scouts, and if we are not taught it early enough, we grow up to be perfectly normal human beings, and you know what real bastards they can be.

I think people often learn bad traits in a similar way that they learn good ones.

nick007
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15 Aug 2024, 12:28 pm

:lol:

Fnord wrote:

A page or two later . . .

Quote:

That sounds to me like he proposed a sex transaction. He bought her a drink in exchange for her having sex with him. I'm wondering if her drink was very expensive or if for some reason she was very desperate for drink

One of my cousins used to pick up women by flasing cash around.
Seemed to me like like a form of legal prostitution.

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Fnord
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16 Aug 2024, 7:24 pm

nick007 wrote:

One of my cousins used to pick up women by flasing cash around.
Seemed to me like like a form of legal prostitution.

As long as she gives legal consent, and was not forced or coerced into giving it, the assignation cannot be called rape.

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